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Post by danielquinn on May 20, 2015 10:00:11 GMT
Nice touch with the not actually using the quote button that will be 81 nevertheless
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Post by MartinT on May 20, 2015 10:01:49 GMT
DQ: behave!
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Post by pinkie on May 21, 2015 9:11:55 GMT
Yes it's a potentially fascinating topic given the radically opposing approaches which have produced magical results. I use a conventional gimbal arm but really enjoyed the uni pivot I had and remain fascinated by them. I am also now unsure about the whole issue of rigidity and coupling. The DL-103 really doesn't like over-tightening and I find the same can be said for many arms such as the RB300. Pete Riggle's VTAF doesn't couple the arm at all. It just sits free, yet it's all the better for it. I have a feeling the detachable headshell debate may be a similar scenario. Maybe the decoupling it offers has some good properties which offset the losses due to a break in cabling to accommodate them. I lost interest with the thread drift. You are right - a lot of approaches can provide alternative valid results. your comments are interesting - almost crystal ball. The original plan for F1 was to use the thread bearing (effectively a unipivot) but it wasn't essential to the key design concept, and "Hi End" - particularly German "Hi End" apparantly relate to big and chunky. The arm was after all pitched into the rare world of Munich (where it was £10000 cheaper than a rival) - and "image" factors are also important there. (Actually - turns out AK had used the right art work for the entrance mat ad after all - so a lot of interest was generated) Jumping to the comment about detachable headshells without the electrical pins - the Funk arms effectively have that now. The headshell is not universal (it couldn't be universal and have no pins!) but you can have several cartridges premounted. Unfortunately its not even that good, in that it doesn't retain the overhang set-up that a conventional detachable headshell allows - so it is not as "quick fit" (although detachable headshells still need VTA adjustment potentially). But that's not the main criticism - the loose leads are still bloody fiddly, and I have yanked a couple of cartridge tags off so far using them (I am particularly ham-fisted to be fair) But detachable and rigid are not mutually exclusive. The funk headshells bolt down - much as a the cartridge itself bolts on - or a cylinder head on a car bolts on. All are sufficiently rigid for purpose - and loose no rigidity as a result of being bolted rather than fixed. (unless you fix your denon 103 with loose bolts of course! - but rigidity v resonance control is another topic) The conventional detachable headshell collet probably often fails to achieve the level of rigidity bolting down does - and introduces "funny" energy transfer into the arm beam construction (it lacks the "integrity" of a fixed headshell - or the funk bolted ones) Thanks for posting on topic!
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 9:28:42 GMT
Cheers, Richard, it is a great topic and even this sceptic would love to see a proper pic or two when available. As for pricing, I'm clearly out of touch. I believed 15k was uncharted territory for a tonearm, let alone 25k. I guess I'm turning into the sort of person I remember from my youth who owed to recount what you could buy for a shilling I also have no doubt Arthur will have come up with something novel and innovative. I have always admired his products but could never live with them long term due to my own tastes and preferences. That doesn't mean I don't hear and appreciate the exceptional clarity and openness. The frustration for me with this arm is that Arthur isn't able to find a different strategy in terms of volume and pricing. I do understand that at his time of life, he probably doesn't want to get into big business again and to be fair, neither would I. It is sad though, that something new and innovative, with a host of Pink/Funk devotees will never be shared by them. The vast majority won't even get to see or hear it and the details can't even be discussed because of fear of Rip-offs. Maybe if this arm is a success, the principles can filter down to more affordable models. Finally, I must confess: You got me! I do indeed prefer the 103 loosely fixed
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 11:51:58 GMT
The only point I can see with this arm is that ideas (if they actually improve on existing product) filter down to affordable designs. The minute sales of this 'concept' arm may bolster the coffers of Funk in the short term but hope this is invested in something with true commercial potential such as an updated version of the 'Anniversary' table. I do think some of Arthur's recent designs have lacked wider appeal irrespective of performance.
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Post by pinkie on May 21, 2015 15:07:28 GMT
I bet if I put some legwork in I could find a name for singularity - but "you know who" - I share your frustrations about pricing and availability to the hoi poloi (among which I count myself). However, I think there are only so many great designs in anyone, and AK knows he can't turn out a "statement" "good as it gets arm" every 5 minutes. This is the old boys swan song. It could never be cheap, and frankly £5000 would be outside of my league (and I assume the "most people" you refer to)
The people who complain loudest about patents are those without an original thought in their head in my experience. So many "designers" , particularly in electronics, copy an existing idea - pimp or tweak it a bit - and get defensive about their "originality". The truth is, AK's most celebrated "new idea" - the acrylic platter, was widely and shamelessly copied long before the patent period expired. If you only have so many ideas, you want a chance at being first with them, and to get some reward from them.
There are £40,000 mono block amplifiers at that show, $100,000 speakers. I remember hearing "ion cloud" speakers once. Way outside my budget - way outside my domestic integration criteria. But a bit like Formula 1 - sometimes its good to see what you can do at the limits - as your very best shot. And eventually the technology trickles down.
I understand why AK wants to have a "remember me by this design" - even if it is too expensive to sell "mass market". He has F5 and F6 at "ordinary" prices, and they punch way above their weight. And he knows how easy it is to underprice and kill a product off. So he is taking no risks with the flagship. But I would rather it was brilliant design at affordable prices. In that context, I am bursting with frustration at still having to wait to get my hands on an ABH2, which if it is as good as the reviews suggest, is serious innovation at prices I can just about stretch to (£2999) . By "serious innovation" I mean genuine new circuits and ideas, rather than fannying about with the earthing and bijou components on a published design, and sticking it in an ice cream tub for casing). And several of those new amplifier ideas are patent protected - but with the clout of Lucas and THX behind them - and the ability to extend the patent ideas across volume production. I've watched Owen designing ABH2 in the lab, but never heard one. (Owens twin brother Andrew of course designed the £50000 TAD reference one speakers - another example of "top dollar" product - and another example of a designer with the technical skills to develop product from measurements and technical expertise. And another example of a designer able to take what he learned from UBER priced reference models, and apply it to cheaper Pioneer brand speakers. The halcyon days of Pink - the really fun times - were when Owen Andrew and Arthur were all there sparking off each other)
I think that does me for responding on the pricing. I will share technical information about the arm as soon as I can. And better pictures.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 16:33:54 GMT
I'm not exactly incognito Ive even told people to look out for me on here and people have even referred to me by name at times. I just chose a more interesting username because I wanted a fresh start and I left my baggage at the door as is only right. I enjoy my music far more without conflict, so I kinda like it here. Talking about names, that's an unusual name for the arm. Do you have any insights? I'm guessing it's something to do with F1 being at the cutting edge of technology but you never know with Arthur. He usually pretty inventive with names. FWIW I think it's exceptionally mean of Arthur not to let you have one of those arms "gratis". Im sure you would appreciate it as much as anyone alive. What more can a man want from life than to be recognised and appreciated by his friends? And you are probably the best chance any of us have of hearing about and seeing it so I hope he considers it. There's a thought: couldn't he just account for it as a promotional expense? It fascinates me why some people can come up with idea after idea whilst the majority of us just seem incapable of one. Mind you, I was the kid who got the biggest meccano set available and only ever managed to create......a ladder. Not much chance of me heading to the patent office any time soon then. Edit. When I typed "Meccano", it was auto-corrected to "Me can't". Says it all really.
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Post by MartinT on May 21, 2015 20:48:14 GMT
The name is also confusing because of the Grand Prix Monaco direct drive turntable (no relation).
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 21:03:27 GMT
I have heard of those Grand Prix Audio Racing Cones but I've missed the TT. Off to Google it.
Edit: Googled it. "unusual" is a good description of the aesthetics.
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Post by pinkie on May 22, 2015 6:19:34 GMT
Hmm - couldn't post from my tablet just now - the post box opened but no keyboard would come up.
No idea on the name, and if I asked he'd only make something up. He has a taste for risque puns like LPT and LSD. I think - looking at the model numbers with F3 as the current "top" arm, through F5 and F6 (and F6a I believe) that it is the Audi idea backwards - ie No1 is the ultimate "biggest" in the "F" (Funk) range. AK47 at "F2" was a play on the old boys inititals - and he's allowed to break his own rules.
I tried pressing him to release some details, because knowing him as I do, I bet he blabbed at Munich - but he asked me to avoid them. Furthest I can go I think is to say that the arm tube is akin to F.X in being composite, but uses 3 materials instead of 2. 2 of those materials have never been used in an arm tube yet. Otherwise - there is the information from the Munich flyer, which I have if anyone is interested, but it is very Arthur style smug coy marketing.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 8:27:39 GMT
Cheers, Richard. That makes sense. you're right about the puns and obscure references. I remember a PT ad (LPT Or Export IIRC) which had something like "FFilly, Iffn't it?" I gave up trying to work that one out and assumed it was an in-joke. Given his past playfulness with names, I'm surprised he hasn't renamed the Grand Prix arm "The Emperor"
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Post by pinkie on May 22, 2015 8:35:07 GMT
Neal Jackson was responsible for the marketing in those days. He had some very obscure "off the wall" ideas, which might have worked if we had Apples' budget and existing solid branding, but were really a kind of wasted private club for a few existing accolytes. A lot were based around Viz or some other comic. It took for granted that you knew what a Pink Triangle was - and many didn't. And those that had heard of it, probably wanted to hear about it in an advert. Never mind...
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Post by Greg on May 22, 2015 19:57:46 GMT
I have no axe to grind here, but it does seem to me that Pinkie is shilling Funk products and Singularity having originally been a challenger has now rolled over and is scratching his back. I thought this forum was supposed to be free of all this? ...............I must have got it wrong.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 20:22:13 GMT
I think I've come to terms with it. Still just as disappointed it won't make it intact to the host of PT/Funk fans and I still think it's too much for a tonearm. That said, Arthur isn't getting any younger and if he wants to be sure of making money from what might be his Swan Song, then I don't care if a few rich people pay megabucks. I think my initial reaction was exactly that: A reaction. Sometimes I forget the first part of my signature and reach for the sword without thinking. I do like Arthur's thinking when it comes to design and a bit of time and reflection has led me to believe that some of the features will inevitably filter down to the people I want to see enjoy them. If a few millionaires finance that by buying the luxury product, then frankly all the better. I try very hard not to entrench myself and will moderate my views if I think I have over-reacted or got something wrong. I see no problem with that and I'm sorry if you do. As for shilling: you have to ask, with a small membership of ordinary working people, how many of us can afford 15k? I can say right now I'm out unless someone wants to join me in a time-share AFAIC here's no real motive for shilling when I reflect on it. Pinkie also can't even justify the cost himself, so he too will be sitting and hoping to get some of the benefits in a cheaper package. To pick up the metaphor, my experience of Arthur's work leads me to conclude that the Emperor probably does have clothes, but they are very pricey ones designed for the very few. I look forward to him dressing in more affordable attire and joining the rest of us to party at at later stage. I hope that explains my movement here. To me the whole point of forum debate and discussion is to exchange views, listen and learn. I've taken away a different view than the one I entered with. To me it would be sad if we all entered and left a debate with the same opinions: YMMV.
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Post by Greg on May 22, 2015 20:44:53 GMT
I completely understand your take on this and I have no argument with what you say. Likewise, I would never be in the market for a F1 arm based on the information Pinkie has given us. Nevertheless, I retain my view that Pinkie is blatantly shilling a Funk product which, unless I am mistaken is not supposed to happen here and I'm a bit surprised a moderator has not interrupted his posting procedure.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 21:09:48 GMT
Thanks, Greg. that's nice of you to say and I genuinely appreciate it. I can see why my change of stance would appear a bit odd and I'm glad to be able to explain.
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Post by ChrisB on May 22, 2015 21:39:54 GMT
Moving away from the discussion of price..... Richard is treading a fine line between being an enthusiast with insider knowledge and appearing to be acting as Arthurs advertising agency. Richard is aware of our rules and I think we can see that he is trying to respect them while having a discussion about something that ought to be interesting to most of us. Care is still required though! You obviously mised this bit from way back in the thread. Care is still required and Richard knows that to be the case.
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Post by MartinT on May 23, 2015 6:16:16 GMT
Yep, what Richard has done is to provide us with some insight into the design process, which is very interesting. He has been careful not to advocate purchasing one and indeed has given us a balanced view including some negative opinions. I see no shilling here and would welcome more of the same about other products.
As for any changing of minds, isn't that what debate and free expression is capable of achieving?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 9:58:22 GMT
Agreed on all counts. I really liked Neil Kinnock's partial misquote of Keynes: "When I'm wrong, I change my mind. what do you do?"
I'm not aiming that at anyone here at TAS (and especially NOT Greg) but it saddens me that other forums suffer from trench warfare because a handful of individuals feel they have nothing left to learn and will defend their position/reputation/ego to the last. Being "right" all the time means you learn absolutely nothing in life and it often means others give up trying to help you understand wider perspectives.
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Post by MartinT on May 23, 2015 12:27:07 GMT
Being "right" all the time means you learn absolutely nothing in life Getting away from those attitudes was one of the prime reasons for us creating TAS. I don't mind admitting I've learned a lot in our less than a year's existence.
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