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Post by danielquinn on May 19, 2015 15:19:04 GMT
"I don't understand why you might think that we're not in a position to assess the truth of an opinion without first expressing that opinion in language, or communicating it to an interlocutor - plausibly we do this all the time; again, I can assess the truth of my opinion that it's currently raining by simply looking out the window - no need vocalise anything. In general, thinkers will be perfectly well placed to confirm or dis-confirm vast swathes of their own opinions for themselves - I can't see any absurdity in this."
because truth is context dependent - [ reliance on the fact of raining is obfuscation }
lets assume you think to be topical [ cake judgement ] that it is the truth that - "homosexuals are abhorrent and should be killed" You can think this all you like without expressing it .
if you communicate your thought and concretise it as an opinion out thier in the real world , you will be charged with hate crime , if you particularize your opinion to a person you will be sued for defamation *.
Additonally , if you dont communicate your thought , but you once again concretise it in the real world by say refusing to make a gay marriage cake , your opinion will see you in trouble with the law .
it is therefore necessary to distinguish between thoughts and opinions and not collapse them to mean the same thing .
* As an aside , this is why i think we are not in a postion to access the truth of our own thoughts . personal truth is no truth at all , truth is context dependant .
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Post by MartinT on May 19, 2015 20:25:03 GMT
This is economically simplistic . The price people are prepared to pay is not as classical economics determines an individual's choice it is a consequence of the distribution of wealth in a society, politics and culture . Before choice comes societal structures and politics . I think you're making it too complex, or taking a global view. An artefact can possess two values: general market value, and personal value. You could take the Picasso recently sold for an extraordinary amount of money. It clearly has a market value in the hundred millions, and will likely continue to rise in value, but to someone who doesn't like Picasso it's close to worthless. Now take Rosetti's Beata Beatrix, which is worth very much less (although being the pre-eminent Pre-Raphaelite his stock has gone up in recent decades). To me, it is worth far more than the Picasso. Ultimately, a person will only pay a certain amount for an item. That is its value to that person.
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Post by canetoad on May 19, 2015 21:27:49 GMT
I suspect you have paraphrased that definition to suit your argument . Also , as opinions are differentiated from facts , it seems reasonable to assume that they must be voiced in order to be able to establish their status It is MY opinion, DQ, that this is precisely your problem. You see your opinions as facts.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 21:52:20 GMT
This thread is a real bummer.
It starts with an infomercial for an arm that virtually nobody can afford and which will likely not exceed ten units produced worldwide. The details are the subject of secrecy and protected by patents pending so we cannot learn anything of value.
From there, we have a discussion about cars taking a detour via Cuba and a debate about capitalism, neo-classical economics and same sex marriage.
Now it has degenerated into an argument about whether an opinion held but not expressed is an opinion at all. It's gone far beyond thread drift and I'm left wondering if a thread with dubious purpose from the outset can get any more banal.
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Post by ChrisB on May 19, 2015 22:39:53 GMT
Agreed, I'd be far more interested in talking about tonearms. At least tonearms that we are able to discuss.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 23:18:53 GMT
Yes it's a potentially fascinating topic given the radically opposing approaches which have produced magical results. I use a conventional gimbal arm but really enjoyed the uni pivot I had and remain fascinated by them.
I am also now unsure about the whole issue of rigidity and coupling. The DL-103 really doesn't like over-tightening and I find the same can be said for many arms such as the RB300. Pete Riggle's VTAF doesn't couple the arm at all. It just sits free, yet it's all the better for it. I have a feeling the detachable headshell debate may be a similar scenario. Maybe the decoupling it offers has some good properties which offset the losses due to a break in cabling to accommodate them.
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Post by ChrisB on May 20, 2015 5:39:16 GMT
I have often thought that it is surprising that no-one has ever thought to make a detachable headshell arm without that break in the wiring. It oughtn't be all that hard to do, surely? After all, it's not exacty a long way from the back of the headshell to the cartridge pins!
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Post by MartinT on May 20, 2015 5:53:48 GMT
I find it fascinating that arm rigidity is not the be-all and end-all of arm design. If it were, the SME V would win easily - did you ever take that test where SME invited you to try and bend one? Yet to me it sounds grey, lacking in dynamics and a bit dull. The bass quality is good, though. Resonance, damping, quality of joints and mounting (as I found out when using a Speedy Steve ebony armboard) all make a difference. I don't even think that removable headshells are evil, certainly not based on my experience (although the Dynavector stub-arm is very short, virtually negating the effect of the joint).
@singularity - thread drift happens in all forums. Sometimes it can be annoying, other times it can lead to fascinating side-discussions. Apologies if you found it the former!
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 7:19:57 GMT
Tone arms seem to exemplify the fact that you can often get to a happy place by taking roads that lead in opposite directions. They can also be spectacular pieces of engineering, visually stunning and also incredibly tactile.
I can live with thread drift but it often seems we have the same protagonists arguing semantics on any thread where an opening is given. Rather than "drift" it seems that looking for conflict, trying to appear clever and arguing about anything with anyone is core the purpose of every thread to some. I'll say it loud and clear: As far as I'm concerned it's trolling. That's an opinion both held and expressed by me to save any further "debating".
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 8:20:24 GMT
Just look at my Avatar to see my thoughts on this.
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Post by pre65 on May 20, 2015 8:39:34 GMT
I live in hope that DQ will post something interesting.
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Post by danielquinn on May 20, 2015 8:53:32 GMT
Accepting the friendly nature of this forum, there seem to be an awful lot of fascist determined to tell people what they can and cannot post . Subject to rules , a forum is a free and open space and a person can post what they like , if you are not interested then dont read it . Additionally I am willing to wager my posts see an increase in traffic than any other person on the forum . Pre comedy needs an element of truth otherwise it just aint funny , a quick glance shows that you have quoted my posts more than any other person , though it is close . Of 840 posts I have made 470 have been quoted and responded to and you have done it no less than 80 times. That an awful lot of uninteresting posts you have responded to
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 8:54:09 GMT
I really don't want to focus on any one person because it always takes people reciprocating to create the sort of arguments we see. It's the reason I rarely discuss hifi on PFM. You can guarantee whatever you say, there will be someone who is sitting there waiting to repeat their circular argument and try to pick a fight. I think Craig's avatar is a useful steer.
Many of us are here precisely because we want to avoid conflict for conflict's sake and talk about hifi instead. I find it disappointing that anyone seeking an argument can pick any other forum and be guaranteed a happy home: Yet they come here.
Part of the package seems to be an attachment to being right.....and getting satisfaction from making the other person wrong. My best discoveries in hifi and in life have been in finding out I was wrong and learning from it. I encourage anyone to ponder this and try to see the other person's perspective. Even if you still broadly disagree, there will often be some common ground....and usually something you can learn from each other.
Hifi should be a pleasant pastime in pursuit of musical enjoyment. It bemuses me how many apparently unhappy, argumentative and cantankerous individuals it seems to attract. If anyone reading this sees a little of themselves, I hope they can open their minds and try a different approach.
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Post by danielquinn on May 20, 2015 8:58:38 GMT
I dont expect you to accept my approach , i do expect you not to give me your cod psychology as to my motivations , I will say this for tonyc at least he as the intelligence to understand my motives before he calls me an arse .
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Post by pre65 on May 20, 2015 9:04:39 GMT
I dont expect you to accept my approach , i do expect you not to give me your cod psychology as to my motivations , I will say this for tonyc at least he as the intelligence to understand my motives before he calls me an arse . The trouble with you DQ is that you do have motivations to disrupt the forum, but unlike your mentor (Mr Dunn) you are clever enough to only go so far, so as to escape the possibility of a ban.
It's just a game to you.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 9:11:22 GMT
I dont expect you to accept my approach , i do expect you not to give me your cod psychology as to my motivations , I will say this for tonyc at least he as the intelligence to understand my motives before he calls me an arse . So now you are wanting to censor my posts and also throw veiled insults regarding my level of intelligence. If you are repeatedly going to act in a confrontational way and troll the forum, I will come out and say it. Id like to see you removed. I'd far rather you moderated your behaviour and contributed positively but you seem either incapable or unwilling to try.
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Post by danielquinn on May 20, 2015 9:25:54 GMT
disrupt dɪsˈrʌpt/Submit verb interrupt (an event, activity, or process) by causing a disturbance or problem.
I deny your adjective pre , i consider my interjections to be positive . I carefully choose which posts to take issue with and all the threads I do are better for it .
Singularity you talk no sense in that post , i suggested you keep your cod-pyschology to yourself , you dont see me attempting to unravel the dark motivations of your stance toward me do you ? You do have a good idea , lets turn the forum in to a popularity contest . we can have a table and vote for weekly evictions . That must surely be the way to go on the friendly forum .
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Post by pre65 on May 20, 2015 9:49:28 GMT
Quote DQ "I carefully choose which posts to take issue with and all the threads I do are better for it . "
I think you really believe that DQ.
Not sure anyone else would.
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Post by MartinT on May 20, 2015 9:56:28 GMT
Part of the package seems to be an attachment to being right.....and getting satisfaction from making the other person wrong. My best discoveries in hifi and in life have been in finding out I was wrong and learning from it. I encourage anyone to ponder this and try to see the other person's perspective. Even if you still broadly disagree, there will often be some common ground....and usually something you can learn from each other. I couldn't agree more. The art of debating is not to pound the opposition into the ground, it's to offer experience and opinion and be prepared to listen to the opposing view. I am sometimes guilty of arguing semantics too, and the only defence I can offer is that I try to inject some humour into it. Regardless, what we want here at TAS more than anything is to respect each others' opinions and findings and learn new things from each other.
In fact, that's it in a single word: RESPECT.
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Post by MartinT on May 20, 2015 9:59:18 GMT
Ok, reading to the end of the thread: no more personal attacks or referencing another current member in a derogatory manner. Anything further will be removed.
In order to re-establish discussions everyone needs to take a deep breath before posting again.
Thanks.
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