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Post by pinkie on Dec 28, 2014 9:21:41 GMT
I mentioned before to Martin that I struggle with participating in forums, because earnest nice people get foo fixated and it leaves me cold. So I avoided this thread especially when I saw the lecture was 25 minutes. I weakened and took a peak while waiting for sue to shower. I got maybe 2 minutes in, by which time the guy had already made the obvious point made by me and many others. Better listening at night is due to reduced background noise, that compression of airwaves which hits your ear drums and directly affects what you hear. Not mains quality. Not vibration in equipment. You can test mains and you can test adding vibration to equipment. Unless you have poor equipment which is badly microphonic then vibration will have no effect. And if it is microphonic, the clue here guys is in the name, it will be affected by airborne not ground vibration. I have, for cosmetic and convenience reasons changed my equipment shelving 3 times recently. Zero affect.
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Post by Stratmangler on Dec 28, 2014 10:02:53 GMT
By the sound of it you don't live on a busy road.
For those of us who do ground vibration is a consideration.
Large volumes of cars aren't too much of an issue, but you get something big, such as a bus or HGV (it's mainly HGVs round here) then you get a combination of both ground vibration and low frequency sound vibration (them big diesel engines make a lot of low frequency sounds when they're idling).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 10:37:44 GMT
You need to live in rural France!!
Mains quality is terrific, no fuses in the plugs, no traffic to speak of apart from the tractors. With their big squishy tyres, they hardly cause any ground vibration at all. 1 metre thick walls resist the air born stuff nicely. We have a great environment for just listening to the music.
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Post by MikeMusic on Dec 28, 2014 10:56:44 GMT
My guess is the RDCs decouple
I started with Mana many years ago, added RDCs recently and they improved it
Still at the start of understanding what is going on and why
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Post by MartinT on Dec 28, 2014 11:01:51 GMT
I'm thinking that I should use the fireplace as a 'sink' for any vibrations (it's solid), so not sure why I'd want to add a rack. Will the RDC cones couple or decouple the kit from the fireplace? RDC Cones should work really well, coupling the equipment to the fireplace and providing the component a little damping. Points downward, of course. Place them directly on the chassis, not the existing feet. |
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Post by Stratmangler on Dec 28, 2014 11:17:49 GMT
You need to live in rural France!! Mains quality is terrific, no fuses in the plugs, no traffic to speak of apart from the tractors. With their big squishy tyres, they hardly cause any ground vibration at all. 1 metre thick walls resist the air born stuff nicely. We have a great environment for just listening to the music. Sounds idyllic! I wish this country was as massively overpopulated as the one one you choose to live in  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 12:36:46 GMT
You need to live in rural France!! Mains quality is terrific, no fuses in the plugs, no traffic to speak of apart from the tractors. With their big squishy tyres, they hardly cause any ground vibration at all. 1 metre thick walls resist the air born stuff nicely. We have a great environment for just listening to the music. Sounds idyllic! I wish this country was as massively overpopulated as the one one you choose to live in AND..... no UK television. Fortunately we also have no French TV which is even worse if that seems possible. There are some great Classical music stations on FM though. I'm sorting out my reception problems. We are in a bit of a black spot here. No signal for mobile phones worth talking about (  ) but that is a plus. Radio needs a bit of a boost so I'm building a good aerial - all wood and wire. Main bits done, just need to add a few reflectors and the signal should be fine. |
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Post by zathras on Dec 28, 2014 13:08:43 GMT
Zathras thinks there is a huge leap of faith being displayed here assuming ground born vibration has any effect on the output of an audio component. No measurements presented from the output of a CD player SS amp or even a valve amp! Also not highlighted in the elephant spring example is that at HF a spring acts as a conduit for that HF vibration and imparts it unattenuated into the device its coupled to! If vibration really does affect a crystal oscillator then it would be this HF vibration his 'sink' is trying to attenuate.
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Post by Sovereign on Dec 28, 2014 14:09:19 GMT
RDC cones or any hard cones for that matter couple.
The extreme differences in coupling and decoupling :
If you sat your equipment on a pillow then you are decoupling the equipment from the surface underneath, if you placed metal speaker spikes under your equipment you are then coupling the equipment to the surface beneath. These are obviously two ends of the scale.
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Post by pinkie on Dec 28, 2014 14:20:56 GMT
By the sound of it you don't live on a busy road. For those of us who do ground vibration is a consideration. Large volumes of cars aren't too much of an issue, but you get something big, such as a bus or HGV (it's mainly HGVs round here) then you get a combination of both ground vibration and low frequency sound vibration (them big diesel engines make a lot of low frequency sounds when they're idling). You're right. I don't live on a busy road. In the house the main noise nuisance is the rattle of the flu liner in the wind. Otherwise its the sound of birds or sometimes people on the local football pitch or cricket pitch. But the point is, if I did live on a noisy road - the "spoiling" would be the noise - not the ground vibration (necessarily). Your appreciation of music depends on the background of silence. If lorries are rumbling past they affect your enjoyment of the music, by feeding noises to your eardrum, not vibrations to your power amp. Clearly we need to distinguish transducers (record player and speakers) from other kit. If I put the speakers against a wall, or in the corner, or on cones, that affects how they sound. If I do those three things with an amplifier, in my experience, that does not affect the sound. And the main vibration source for most peoples amplifiers will be from their HiFi!!!! And that will be airborne not ground based (we're back to the discussion about turntables with suspensions and lids) The issue, I alluded to, is that when we hear, we don't do that exclusively (possibly even primarily) with our ears. The experience is supplied by our brains, and the brain processing draws on a number of factors - sensory input from the ears, but also the eyes, knowledge, expectations, mood, and "our map". Accordingly I won't labour the point here but pick it up on the NLP thread.  |
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Post by pinkie on Dec 28, 2014 14:23:13 GMT
You need to live in rural France!! Mains quality is terrific, no fuses in the plugs, no traffic to speak of apart from the tractors. With their big squishy tyres, they hardly cause any ground vibration at all. 1 metre thick walls resist the air born stuff nicely. We have a great environment for just listening to the music. You're having a bubble aren't you. When I sat in your living room there was a fairly constant traffic noise from a road which is about 10 feet from the speakers. And mains is mains... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 14:28:51 GMT
You need to live in rural France!! Mains quality is terrific, no fuses in the plugs, no traffic to speak of apart from the tractors. With their big squishy tyres, they hardly cause any ground vibration at all. 1 metre thick walls resist the air born stuff nicely. We have a great environment for just listening to the music. You're having a bubble aren't you. When I sat in your living room there was a fairly constant traffic noise from a road which is about 10 feet from the speakers. And mains is mains... Wedding party - lasts for hours back and forth. Right now, we are sitting in absolute silence which is the norm round here. There is a traffic jam at about 7pm each evening...at least 5 or 6 cars. Mains, I am told by just about everyone but you...is not just mains. There a very few people round here injecting crap into it. Even Mr A. Foo here could hear the difference in the UK. |
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Post by MartinT on Dec 28, 2014 15:15:00 GMT
RDC cones or any hard cones for that matter couple. Indeed they do, and I agree with your scale. If hard points like Stillpoints are at one end of the scale, RDCs are a little off it as they provide some damping while still effectively coupling. Their stated aim is to lengthen the path to ground through the compound they're made of. |
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Post by BilliumB on Dec 28, 2014 17:32:29 GMT
I'm interested - what do you think they mean by 'lengthening the path to ground'?
Cheers. Bill
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Post by MartinT on Dec 28, 2014 19:25:37 GMT
what do you think they mean by 'lengthening the path to ground'? RDC Cones have a slightly dished base. Therefore the component is coupled from the periphery of the base of the cone to the point, following a diagonal and lengthening the path to ground. |
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Post by BilliumB on Dec 28, 2014 23:36:52 GMT
I've been recommended to use a combination of 2 decoupling supports (eg sorbothane) and a single coupling support per item, the coupling support to 'draw' any vibrations into the 'sink' (in my case the fireplace) - have you had any success with this type of arrangement?
Extra weight on top of items has also been suggested, and I see you are doing this with granite slabs.
Cheers. Bill
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Post by ChrisB on Dec 28, 2014 23:39:31 GMT
I think that was an approach similar to one that the likes of Micromega took at one time.
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Post by MartinT on Dec 29, 2014 1:37:50 GMT
I've been recommended to use a combination of 2 decoupling supports (eg sorbothane) and a single coupling support per item, the coupling support to 'draw' any vibrations into the 'sink' (in my case the fireplace) - have you had any success with this type of arrangement? I use a similar arrangement with my turntable - deck coupled with RDCs to the 'sink', an Electric Beach platform, itself decoupled from the system rack with sorbothane pucks. My SACD player is double-coupled to an EB platform and then to the system rack. All other components are single coupled to the rack. The rack itself is coupled via 6 RDC Cones to the concrete floor. |
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Post by BilliumB on Dec 29, 2014 2:12:04 GMT
Thanks Martin, if I understand you correctly, you're using 2 or more 'layers' of support (isolating or coupling) on a item. The recommendation to me was (I understand) slightly different, as follows: say on an amp, you would put 2 sorbothane (or 'decoupling') supports under the rear (say) and a single coupling support under the front (say). Just wondered if anyone had tried this sort of combination.
I guess the single point of coupling might provide some benefit?
Cheers. Bill
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Post by MartinT on Dec 29, 2014 2:17:19 GMT
I haven't tried that, Bill. What I can say is that none of my components like sorbothane, I only use it under the turntable because it needs that level of isolation.
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