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Post by MartinT on Apr 1, 2024 21:17:25 GMT
145dB!!
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Post by MikeMusic on Apr 2, 2024 5:47:29 GMT
Serious kit indeed
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Post by speedysteve on Apr 4, 2024 21:36:56 GMT
Found this interesting analysis and explanation of group delay; I've cut down on some of the tech stuff "The Danley speakers are phase coherent, but the midrange is closer to the listener than the tweeter, and the woofer is closer still. Lets figure out how this works. If you have an array of speakers in sealed boxes, you can time align them by arranging the drivers in an arc around your head. The reason that this works is that a well behaved driver in a sealed box has nearly no group delay in it's passband. (This pic is of a car, but the concepts work in a car, a room, a studio or a rock concert.) We could use DSP to offset the group delay. Or we could physically move them. The animation above shows how far we have to move the midrange and the midbass to compensate for the group delay introduced by the bandpass box. In this example, the midrange is 'pulled' forward by 25 centimeters, and the midbass is 'pulled' forward by 40cm. Here's a picture comparing the predicted locations of our tweeter, midrange and midbass. Layered on top is the Danley SH-50 Synergy horn. There are some small differences. The Danley tweeter is closer. I believe this is because the compression driver has a built in group delay. (IE, a dome tweeter would not have a delay, but a compression driver *will*, because a compression driver is basically a bandpass enclosure also.) The Danley woofers are further away than my sim. I believe this is because it makes the enclosure smaller, and at low frequencies, a difference of six inches won't mean a whole lot. If you look at the Danley SH-25 horn, you'll notice that the woofers are much further down the throat than in the SH-50." I get most of this stuff😃
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Post by mattspl on Apr 4, 2024 21:54:00 GMT
When are you installing the Horns into your car? 😃
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Post by speedysteve on Apr 5, 2024 9:51:36 GMT
When are you installing the Horns into your car? 😃 People have😃, the guy who did that analysis has I believe. There are mini Unity horns which helps the smaller front stuff. Huge bass systems no problem for them. The car audio brigade have 10 and even 12 output DSP units. CPU power for full FIR. I've wondered how good they might found on a hifi. 12V battery power 🤔
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Post by speedysteve on Apr 5, 2024 10:07:10 GMT
Don't think I've posted this one.
Goes some way to explaining
When I play the traditional steeper crossover setup to my wife, and then the flatter phase coherent setup back to back, she immediately said the trad setup sounds like a flatter wall. All the music is there but it's 2d.
When describing the phase coherent setup, she rotated her hands over and over nearer then farther away from the speakers, and explained there was a depth to them, that was previously lacking.
She doesn't spend hours listening and reading like I do, so it's an obvious and tangible change that she picked up on.
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Post by mattspl on Apr 5, 2024 10:36:55 GMT
When are you installing the Horns into your car? 😃 People have😃, the guy who did that analysis has I believe. There are mini Unity horns which helps the smaller front stuff. Huge bass systems no problem for them. The car audio brigade have 10 and even 12 output DSP units. CPU power for full FIR. I've wondered how good they might found on a hifi. 12V battery power 🤔 A friend of mine had a pioneer system in one of his cars that we installed. One pair of 6 x 9’s had concentric horn tweeters. He had a 15 inch square kicker sub in the boot and we could hear him coming from about a mile down the road.
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Post by speedysteve on Apr 5, 2024 12:44:02 GMT
This 😂 Makes me feel totally sane
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Post by speedysteve on Apr 5, 2024 20:41:49 GMT
Today's tweaking was to add some short tubes to the LF reflex ports. I'd briefly tried this on one side but decided to try both. Inspiration is the SM60F I don't know if the SH50 has such? Not seen them in disassembled or pre final assembly pictures, so I guess not. Can't hurt to try. I'm evaluating with bass tracks😁 Incidentally a port and reflex volume calculator programme, wirk my 12" woofer T&S input, came up with the exact same dimension port holes as Danley uses👍 Hard to measure the volume of the enclosure, guess it's near enough right though as it follows the dimensions of the originals.
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Post by mattspl on Apr 5, 2024 21:02:27 GMT
I can almost see where cars and horns have merged in that last image. It looks quite like a car engine.
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Post by speedysteve on Apr 6, 2024 12:26:49 GMT
I've been reading lots of threads regarding folks experiences of the sound these horns make, indoors verses outdoors, room treatments, positioning etc etc. Also comparing the SH-50 and the SM-60(F).
My takeaways
-Some didn't like the BMS 4550 sound (me included).
- the odd report of slightly muddy waters in the upper bass (less so when used outside).
- The SM60F sound was not necessarily an improvement over the SH50 (horses for courses?). Some reports that the coaxial sound was a bit ragged.
These are interesting comments and the ensuing discussions very helpful in my deciding what to do next - if anything😃
So, where am I now?
I've addressed the BMS4550 sound - replaced it with a compression driver (Vitavox S2), I really like the sound of.
Personally I've not found the upper bass an issue at all - with EQ to stop the LF playing over the MF..
Easy to do with DSP, very much harder to address in analogue and still preserve the phase purity.
Without any EQ its pretty good still, but there is some colouration / that muddiness that was reported.
Now I've got the setup just where I like it, the sound is very, very good indeed.
There is still the question of what amp to use on the MF cones.
Presently I've not the slightest inclination of going back to the Le Cléac'h HF, Tractrix MF and Exponential LF'ish setup.
The tests of left channel old system vs right channel SH50 and the hybrid with Le Cléac'h HF with SH50 MF and LF verses the full SH50 both (with the same Comp Driver) gave me all the info about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the setups.
Perhaps it has also taken some time to make new neural pathways, for me to fully appreciate the Synergy sound?
A/B comparisons are all well and good, but we live with a system and its 'house sound' across many tracks and genres, over days, weeks, months, good recordings, bad recordings, new material, others music tastes etc.
The DIY SH50, admittedly somewhat tweaked, is certainly fulfilling my expectations and requirements.
Time to see if anyone local enough to me wants to collect some loooong, large exponential round midbass horns? 😂 Local tip, or bonfire (think of the environment!). The Tractrix and JBL2484s would be more marketable I think.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 6, 2024 17:59:42 GMT
Always good when you've made a positive step forwards with no desire to go back to the old sound. Well done, Steve, for all the effort made in creating them.
Time you changed your avatar!
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Post by speedysteve on Apr 6, 2024 20:57:40 GMT
Always good when you've made a positive step forwards with no desire to go back to the old sound. Well done, Steve, for all the effort made in creating them. Time you changed your avatar! Ooh yes - and the avatar!
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Post by speedysteve on Apr 10, 2024 13:19:13 GMT
I played my system for a musical friend today. He plays the guitar really well!
He's into the heavier side of things, think artists Tool and the like. He was quite happy that I opened with ACDC Tunderstruck✊ Then played some Tool tracks for him.
He commented "Usually ordinary 'hifi' falls a bit short"
He was amazed at the Sound PRESSURE Level effortlessly achieved by the SH50s.
I explained the background of them, and how pared down mine are compared to full driver compliment😱 Full compliment would give me +6dB😁
Then onto John Butler Trio and Nils Lofgren for some lively acoustic guitar.
Could not get over the level of detail and speed. Noted the soundstage too. He's using headphones and ear buds mostly.
Played a couple of room shakers too, just to really shock and awe. These typically have 25 to 30Hz bass, no problem rattling your fillings with fidelity. Workout for the tapped horns Skipped the 18Hz church organ - wrong target audience 🙂
I'm still impressed by these things.
Gonna be interesting times ahead demoing..
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Post by speedysteve on Apr 11, 2024 16:23:24 GMT
The round exponential mid bass horns, once powered by Eninence Kappa 15As, trialled with the Legendary Vitavox 15" drivers, then used for a couple of years with JBL2220 15" drivers - then reworked and extended and used with Kappa 12A drivers for several years; are now out in temp storage, on their way to either a new home (unlikely), or the skip. I'll keep the rear drivers mounting boxes as they are nice 21mm birch plywood and can be dismantled and the wood reused. Had them 11 years in one form or another. The SH50 / Synergy system is too compelling 😃 not going back. This evening I'm testing the SH50s further away from the front wall - nearer the sofa. 12' from listening spot. Might bring them into the room a bit also. Each change requires a quick measuring and phase time alignment with the tapped horns. The good thing is the SH50 works as a unit. Once the 3 drivers are set up with the measuring mic 1m away, EQd and phase coherent, that's it for them👍 Also as they are horn / reflex bass there's no extra kick sitting further away, as with front loaded bass horns.
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Post by petea on Apr 11, 2024 18:09:02 GMT
Is the spade for the 'shallow grave', Steve?!
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Post by speedysteve on Apr 11, 2024 18:21:31 GMT
Is the spade for the 'shallow grave', Steve?! 😂 No, it's a spade for digging up scores of Box hedging that lined our flower borders - all stone dead, moth caterpillars and then blight got them all. Lots of properties all around here all lost theirs too!
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Post by petea on Apr 11, 2024 22:44:30 GMT
Ah, digging up the dead and not burying them. Enough said!
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Post by speedysteve on Apr 15, 2024 21:05:43 GMT
Right! New project😀 Hifi room and.... Home cinema room! The whole family have expressed an interest in family movie times🙂 Esp in a purposed AV experience. A 65" or 70" TV will fit on the front wall. Something like 3 of these abreast, in 2 rows seats 6. Rear row on raised platform to give cinema experience to rear row. Or Still leaves room down the side to access and listening spot for hifi only.. The Danley SH50s are perfect as Left, Right and the AV boys say no centre required. Tapped horns as subs.. 2 cheapies are rears. A 5.1 AV would split the cinema sound off to Najda (doing X/O etc duty) for SH50 L and R. Perhaps a separate sub woofer would make it easier, driven from AV receiver directly, same for rears. Tapped horns amp would be off then. AV receiver off, and Najda input selecting Rendu all would be as normal. Apparently/reportely Bill Gates and George Lucas etc use SH50s in their Danley home cinema systems - got me thinking...
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Post by mattspl on Apr 15, 2024 22:09:53 GMT
That is going to be a seriously dynamic home cinema.
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