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Post by speedysteve on Mar 6, 2024 23:55:57 GMT
That is a beautiful build! I would never have the time or patience with my current todo list, to build them like that for myself! I've read about the B&C dcx464 coaxial being used. Not cheap at £500+ but nothing to TAD / Vitavox / Goto. Danley uses a BMS coaxial.
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Post by mattspl on Mar 7, 2024 10:32:14 GMT
That is a beautiful build! I would never have the time or patience with my current todo list, to build them like that for myself! I've read about the B&C dcx464 coaxial being used. Not cheap at £500+ but nothing to TAD / Vitavox / Goto. Danley uses a BMS coaxial. Really nice looking speakers and quite compact too. I think you have no problem building some.
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 7, 2024 11:49:56 GMT
That is a beautiful build! I would never have the time or patience with my current todo list, to build them like that for myself! I've read about the B&C dcx464 coaxial being used. Not cheap at £500+ but nothing to TAD / Vitavox / Goto. Danley uses a BMS coaxial. Really nice looking speakers and quite compact too. I think you have no problem building some. True, but I like prototyping and trying new things too much to bother with fancy finishes for myself📐📏⚙️🔨🗑️
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 8, 2024 22:18:11 GMT
2nd completed today. And lifted into place. Angled to the side wall, as per Danley wisdom Did my driver checks as usual. Wiring all okay. Ran some sweeps, all looked okay. On this cab I decided not to do any dishing driver side of the MR taps. Resulting sweep No XO or PEQ. Forgot to click up to 1/6! Plenty low! I also made a full volume rear cab cover for this one. This has double the volume of the first one I made. Other thing I tried was omitting the sound deadening sheeting, just to see the difference. LF was down on SPL! Upped it on the amp. The LF plot isn't quite as nice either (Pretty sure the sound deadening isn't what giving me less SPL on bass only. Other thing is the bass drivers are fully run in of course). After tweaking similarly to the RH side, time for a listen. First thoughts are, its actually quite polite, very revealing direct, but refined (less distortion from reflections of the Le Cléac'h and Tractrix? More thoughts later..
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 10, 2024 7:49:19 GMT
A little update. Having tuned the pair yesterday and got the SPLs of each driver about right, things started coming together more. I tried time aligning each driver within the horns to my listening spot.. I know, but I wanted to see:) As expected having all 3 at the same setting and letting the Synergy do it's thing sounded much better. What's the point of Synergy otherwise? With only one 12" LF woofer per SH50 side (6dB down on Art's calcs ) there's still PLENTY of LF SPL in my room! I can't say I can hear the difference double the reflex volume is making on the left channel vs half on the right. I'm surprised at that! I took the short port extenders out of the righthand side.. Less bass SPL. I'll try with them in both sides next, but might have to PEQ to smooth things a bit. There's no port sounds that I can detect. I had too much overlap with the tapped horns in the beginning and at higher volumes things in the room started resonating - not the speakers themselves but just random items that needed moving a bit I then listened with the tapped horns off and there is still quite a bit of bass going on. 4 string bass guitar is covered pretty well by the SH50s alone! Not quite deep enough for my tastes, but that's why I have tapped horns:) I will try just one tapped horn next and see if that works. Coming it at 50Hz or so, should be directionless. I like the LF tone and presence I'm getting. The MF and LF presentation is quite a bit different to what I'm used to. It's drier and perhaps more accurate. If you could some how put that Vitavox S2 / Le Cleach horn sound inside the SH50 it would tick many boxes! The BMS4550 is still a bit screechy at times (running in still esp the new LH side), but getting better with time. The MF is there but not really standing out - also still running it, I'm getting familiar with the different presentation these give, so called point source. Some material is excellent, others I miss what the old system did. With a pair, the true omi-directional ability is coming to the fore. You can sit pretty much anywhere in the room and it sounds good, uniform and true. If you demo a lot or play to a larger audience perfect, I can see why these are good in larger home cinemas. So, to sum up; - like the bass. Love the compact length (compared with old 1.3m long straight, no so LF horns). - like the omnipresentation sound. - MF and HF needs more running in / more tuning - even even small SPL changes improve things or worsen them. Things that spring to mind immediately - these may change with running in and tuning more. - Could try a hybrid using the SH50 LF and my usual tractrix MF and Le Cleach HF - but that kinda defeats the whole object! - Plan the next project - a pair of SH60F alikes.. What coaxials to use, purchase 4 x 8" drivers etc etc. I'm really enjoying the journey with these.
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Post by mattspl on Mar 10, 2024 10:45:47 GMT
It sounds like you are making good progress.
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 10, 2024 11:30:45 GMT
When do you think they will have settled in speedysteve ?
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 10, 2024 13:28:15 GMT
Progress for sure. Sounded better this morning.. I've left just the HF and MF playing away all day.. I was tired last night, today I def heard a difference in LF response. I took some LF sweeps in the cold light of day! This (blue plot) is what double the volume of back cab does to the low freq resp! I'll be adjusting this PDQ! Meanwhile I've left the HF and MF playing away all day to help break them in. Will be demoing to our daughters this afternoon. They've grown up with my hifi shenanigans over the years, and have pretty astute ears!
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Post by MartinT on Mar 10, 2024 13:35:55 GMT
So, as you had suspected, the bigger volume cab damages low frequency response?
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 10, 2024 16:28:51 GMT
So, as you had suspected, the bigger volume cab damages low frequency response? Yes, it was designed for 2 X 12" LF, double the MF driver quota and a large passive crossover board! I, rather by luck, got the 1st lash up cab just right! 😂 I will stuff it with tough bags filled with felt or glass fibre insulation to achieve the same with very little extra mass. I will then make a full cab rear for the other one too, pre-stuffed. The full rear looks the business..
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 10, 2024 22:54:56 GMT
Took the back off the full rear cab. Filled the driverless half with sturdy IKEA zip bags I'd stuffed with needled upholstery felt. Had a measure. That's better. Love it when a plan comes together. This means that the tapped horns can do just 20-50Hz or so. Can try going down to just one, for fun. I've put chasing flatter phase aside for the time being. EQ'd so it measures okay with each driver doing it's thing and no more, it's really starting to sing. Daughters with younger ears listened to a lots of material they like. Streaming is great for that. Not a song they wanted that Qobuz didn't have. They noticed the missing top Freq 'snow'. It doesn't bother me, but of course the Raal Lazy Ribbons I was using gave up to super tweeter frequencies, if the gear I use actually passed that on. They described it as direct but tonally pleasing. Compared it to the 5 way system favourably, commended the wider listening presentation than just the lightening spot. The anywhere to wander around thing impressed. As did playing it silly loud 😎 Thought it was a keeper. They are very honest about these things. Youngest would like the Raal ribbons playing over the top.. Pic they took Now it's tme for a rest and settle down for a listen and resist fiddling too much That is until I realise something can be improved upon😀
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Post by MartinT on Mar 11, 2024 5:31:01 GMT
They look purposeful and less cluttered than your previous array. Big, though!
With all my recent changes, the Usher beryllium tweeters sound more integrated and less 'obvious' than before. I think it's an outcome of coherence and everything working well together, in yours too.
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 11, 2024 18:20:57 GMT
Yes Synergys are there to be found 🙂
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 12, 2024 22:43:31 GMT
After a while in the less than flat phase wilderness, and lots of time spent with fiddling with PEQs (both over and under done🙄🙂), 1st order X/Os on and off, and some time alignment to subtly shift phase too (I've read how to posts and guides over and over!)...
I've got something a lot closer to flat phase over most of the freq range!
It sounds much better too.
I'm still not sure I'm doing it right, and the little kink (bubble), around the X/O point between MF and HF is still there but within 40 degrees phase shift now.
The LF still climbs as frequence drops - seemingly nothing I can do about that.
The higher HF frequency still has phase drop a bit.
However, It's a balanced sound.
Across the range it definitely completes with the old 5 way system now!
Just that HF smoothness that the Vitavox S2s and Le Cléac'h combo had - esp on female vocal, that I can't get out of my brain!
I just had a though to add some whole tube rings to the HF amp, calms things down!
I'm loving the fact that the freq coverage of various instruments isn't moving around across drivers in a big physical space any more!
Time alignment of the two channels helped imaging.
A bit closer to audio heaven😂
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 15, 2024 21:02:53 GMT
Played around using this procedure 1. No X/Os on the LF and MF. BW 6dB/oct on HF hi-pass. I am using 1000Hz at the moment as it takes over from the MF nicely. 2. Volume level the drivers 3. Smooth the frequency plots using PEQs, hammer down the LF to interface with the MF. Hammer down any high freq rubbish from LF and MF that otherwise spoils the HF sound (had this to start with) 4. Further adjust to give nice enough Freq plot with the 3 drivers in unison. 5. Move time alignment of MF in relationship to HF back and forth, trial and error to get sweet spot regarding phase flatness. Same with LF to find the sweet spot. 6. Adjust PEQs to improve phase flatness 7. Kick back and listen🎶 The result is close to not more than 45° phase shift, 10KHz and down to beyond the point at which the MF hands over to the LF. It's a bit crinkle cut 🍟 at 1/6 smoothing. This is as close as have been to the Synergy concept doing its flattish phase thing. I then added the tapped horns in, doing usual, selection of appropriate opposing X/O slopes, aligning the phases between Tapped horns and Synergy LF phase plots. Sounds very composed and clean. Calm and even right across the frequency range. That's the Synergy. They can play incredibly loud too, cleanly, without pissing my ears off - that the reduced 2nd/3rd room reflections. This is probably as far as I'll bother getting them in the listening room The sound is the sound - SH50 alike house sound. Other than getting the real deal Misco MF drivers, and Faital 12"ers for the LF. What I have work just fine. Danley doesn't use boutique drivers😎 Next step is live with them for a while, see how they grow on me. When the weather improves, I'll take them outside and connect up my 3 PA Amps to drive them loud, control with a Behringer DCX2496 I still have, set them up and see what they can do <headbanger> Might need to add the extra LF driver (= 6dB more loudness) and the 2 extra MFs per side - we'll see. After that, perhaps it's time to take on an SM60F alike build Or custom dispersion angle MEH?🙂
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 16, 2024 21:32:22 GMT
Couldn't stop there😀
This evening I focused on the BMS 4550 compression drivers in the SH50s.
I've been having a bit of a hard time comparing them with the Vitavox S2s (latest issue diaphragms, fully refurbished) on Le Cléac'h horns.
Things like piano and female vocal just not smooth enough..
I searched for tuning compression drivers and wasn't disappointed😀
I focused on the FR peaks when looking at high detail, 1/16 or more smoothing - much higher detail than I usually care to look.
I cut the worst peaks on each BMS HF channel and had a listen. Much smoother but not dulled.
Could Inc the SPL a bit to taste, for more dynamics, without the grating or setting my ears on edge.
It's a much nicer listen.
Then did the same on the MF (Celestion 5"ers).
One thing I noticed in the measurements answered one of my construction questions...!
Comparing the RH MF (where I had dished the taps under the drivers), when looking in that sort of detail gave quite a bit smoother FR curve than the LH channel (I'd purposefully just done straight holes through)..
The difference is not audible to me as such, but it is on the plots.
I will dish them next time I have the thing apart for some reason.
So that's cleared that up for me🙂
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 18, 2024 22:00:07 GMT
Well, I lasted just over 2 weeks with the sound of the BMS 4550 1" drivers in the conical SH50 alikes. Don't get me wrong, on a dance floor, or a wedding it works just fine. Personally for me - long term hifi listening it just lacked that emotionally epic, draw you in performance and sound I get from my Vitavox S2s on the Le Cléac'h horn. So here's what I'm listening to now 😂 Might fine too! Subs - Still the tapped horns LF and MF the SH50 alike Synergy horn HF- S2s / Le Cléac'h HF+ Raal Lazy ribbons I went back to my usual implementation of crossovers that are chosen for similar slopes to give good phase aligned overlaps (not trying to flat phase adjust outside of the Synergy horn). To sum up, I like the LF bass performance from the Synergy, the MF is fine enough too (for now?). Now I have the S2 magic back too, and if my daughters come and listen they will not miss the Raal HF+. Also, I'm not listening in a big cinema room where even sound coverage is important. What next? Who knows. Oh and none of this would be possible without a quality DSP X/O solution allowing almost infinite configurabilty and consistent sound quality to be able to judge all the setups. Trusty measuring mic and Holmimpulse are also my friends. One day I will learn REW..
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Post by MartinT on Mar 19, 2024 8:42:11 GMT
Mega hybrid lash-up!
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 19, 2024 9:20:26 GMT
Lash ups with care and attention are the best🤩
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 19, 2024 10:13:26 GMT
Liking Le Cléac'h.. Something like this next.. Drop the little horn of course, With taps and ports in the corners 😀 Curved 5" and 12" driver mount adaptors.. noone makes a curved driver basket😂 Would still need that S2 killer driver though.
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