Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 275
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Post by Tobias on Aug 14, 2024 9:10:08 GMT
I find it rather interesting that we still see these types of posts in April 2024 from such established HiFi manufacturers. Audiophile Snake OilYes, as their name suggest, they are very measurement focused. But how have they managed to avoid noticing that some claimed snake oil areas do actually have an impact on sound (in reality). |
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Post by MartinT on Aug 14, 2024 9:25:48 GMT
Benchmark are one of these 'measurements first' companies - indeed, their strapline is "the measure of excellence". This might account for why I find their products somewhat bland sounding.
I do despair at established companies still calling products like audiophile fuses 'snake oil' when it is really easy to order a few in and conduct a listening test. You would have to be deaf as a doorpost not to hear the differences, regardless of what you like.
Mention also of placebo effect, which manages to insult all music lovers who know their system well. No-one really needs to fool themselves on changes made (well, perhaps a few weak individuals who allow expectation bias to colour their judgement). Most of us can hear quite subtle changes over time as the changes creep into our awareness.
I can't help feeling these are the thoughts of the lazy, or those who listen to systems rather than listen to music. It does not predispose me very well to Benchmark or its products.
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 275
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Post by Tobias on Aug 14, 2024 9:49:46 GMT
Its funny that they ask questions about the logic of fuses, as the manufacturer they are.
As you say, instead of making an effort in understanding this phenomenon, by actually trying to figure it out to possible improve their own products, they are being lazy and seem to wait for a graph to be published by someone, before acting on it. :-)
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Post by MikeMusic on Aug 14, 2024 10:12:05 GMT
Nocebo is rarely mentioned in this area
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 275
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Post by Tobias on Aug 14, 2024 10:28:40 GMT
Nocebo is rarely mentioned in this area Exactly, and this is the part i don´t understand, that is just too stupid to be true... :-) If you measure things, and have a strong belief in measurements, then you will also have the strongest bias i can ever imagine when listening to the gear. I find it amazing that the measurement focused people are referring to placebo as a big problem when they must (in my mind) be the ones who fall victims to that the most... |
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Post by ajski2fly on Aug 14, 2024 10:32:21 GMT
Personally before I listen to any music I rub myself down liberally with 'Snake Oil' and syringe my ears out with some, you be amazed how it improves the soundstage and stops erroneous vibrations and reflection from my body.  |
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Post by MartinT on Aug 14, 2024 10:40:34 GMT
I find it amazing that the measurement focused people are referring to placebo as a big problem when they must (in my mind) be the ones who fall victims to that the most... That's a very good point indeed. Those of us who listen (i.e. subjectivists) automatically ignore placebo and expectation as we LISTEN to the outcome. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard no change or even had to backtrack because the outcome was poor. That is the nature of experimentation: two steps forward for every one backward. Objectivists must be fooling themselves that they hear what the measurements (often erroneously) imply all the time! |
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 275
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Post by Tobias on Aug 14, 2024 10:53:01 GMT
I find it amazing that the measurement focused people are referring to placebo as a big problem when they must (in my mind) be the ones who fall victims to that the most... That's a very good point indeed. Those of us who listen (i.e. subjectivists) automatically ignore placebo and expectation as we LISTEN to the outcome. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard no change or even had to backtrack because the outcome was poor. That is the nature of experimentation: two steps forward for every one backward. Objectivists must be fooling themselves that they hear what the measurements (often erroneously) imply all the time! They are exposed to "placebo" all the time, during their development and listening sessions, which is why they think the placebo effect is a big problem. Actually very funny, i think. But sort of tragic at the same time. |
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Post by John on Aug 14, 2024 12:27:36 GMT
This probably explains why the Benchmark gear doesn't engage me.
They are going for a specific market, just like SMSL and Topping do around measurements. It also gives free advertising on sites like ASR with a defined market.
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Post by wannarock2 on Aug 14, 2024 23:22:20 GMT
Geez, friendly crowd. Guys you are making me defend my LA4
It’s not the weakest link in my chain. The thing I appreciate about 100% analog is if I turn the volume to max. with DAC on and in neutral, not even a whisper from the speakers (i know that sounds like a weird thing to do). Anyway, of any component I have ever had, it is the quietest.Other dubious attributes -256-step fully-balanced relay gain control, 0.5dB stepsSignal-to-noise ratio > 137dBTotal harmonic distortion < -125dBCrosstalk < -133dB @ 1kHz, -116dB @ 10 kHz
Gustard x26 Pro XLR-IN to LA4 at ~5v stepped up thru LA4 unity gain to ~9v adds punch 
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 275
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Post by Tobias on Aug 15, 2024 2:12:42 GMT
I am not claiming that Benchmark isn’t any good. They have earned a lot of amazing reputation and is reviewed greatly.
It is their view on what snake oil is that i don’t agree with.
If anything their post is very unfriendly towards people that has learnt to trust their ears, especially in the digital domain, in my own experience.
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Post by MartinT on Aug 15, 2024 4:36:45 GMT
Gustard x26 Pro XLR-IN to LA4 at ~5v stepped up thru LA4 unity gain to ~9v adds punch That's interesting as I find the Gustard's digital volume-controlled output has huge punch anyway. Have you tried it direct to the power amp? |
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Post by palace on Aug 15, 2024 8:59:35 GMT
Geez, friendly crowd. Guys you are making me defend my LA4
It’s not the weakest link in my chain. The thing I appreciate about 100% analog is if I turn the volume to max. with DAC on and in neutral, not even a whisper from the speakers (i know that sounds like a weird thing to do). Anyway, of any component I have ever had, it is the quietest.Other dubious attributes -256-step fully-balanced relay gain control, 0.5dB stepsSignal-to-noise ratio > 137dBTotal harmonic distortion < -125dBCrosstalk < -133dB @ 1kHz, -116dB @ 10 kHz
Gustard x26 Pro XLR-IN to LA4 at ~5v stepped up thru LA4 unity gain to ~9v adds punch If your system is making noise under that scenario ie full volume nothing playing then you have some work to do, i's a quick test that I use, my valve pre-amp with simple volume control & amp probably can't reach those measurements it is however quiet & very musical. I have no knowledge of the LA4 but as you say appears not to be the weak link. Prior to my efforts to remove/prevent EMI/RFi With copper foil shielding on power cables + clip on ferrites, I also had noise under the same conditions, with help from members of this forum & Stack Audio Auva EQ's under the amplifier, pre amplifier & Auva 50's under the Croft phono stage with twin simple volume controls & fitted with SUT.s by Mark Manwaring-White, I shielded inside the Croft with copper foil, as well as Auva 50's under the CD4se CD player & Auva 70's under my OTA Quad 57's. My ears tell me that I still prefer the analogue, the improvements to the Digital side have also been enormous. |
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Post by julesd68 on Aug 15, 2024 10:19:40 GMT
I do despair at established companies still calling products like audiophile fuses 'snake oil' when it is really easy to order a few in and conduct a listening test. You would have to be deaf as a doorpost not to hear the differences, regardless of what you like. Now that's a challenge I hope to take some time!  But please clarify the rules of the game - what fuses and what budget - £50, £500, £5000? And what component would they go in for this test? |
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 275
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Post by Tobias on Aug 15, 2024 10:42:40 GMT
For me personally it is that they point out component isolation platforms as snake oil, that is the biggest "issue".
Being interested in HiFi sometimes feels like living in a parallel universe when a company like them are saying something like this :-)
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Post by HD Music & Test on Aug 15, 2024 14:23:05 GMT
BM Very matter of fact, lean and dry, fast dynamic and mildly powerful, the dac3 being the worst culprit imho Quality sensibly priced products which are built well & have a lot of the pro audio world in their corner. As has been said many times before it’s what really floats YOUR boat that matters, not a forum consensus. If this was the case my system would either be a Living voice / Kondo / Horny toad set up. A dcs stack/magico<>wilson/AR / D'Agistino / constellation amplification equipment pile/ Whippet thrasher par excellence/ Meridian / Accusnooze / Harbeth fest or if I was frequenting the What's best Forum A Wadax Atlantis Reference / Magico M9's with a quad pack of Pilium amps on a Triple Crown Royal loom. Thankfully I know my own mind, know how music in the real world (both acoustic & amplifier) sounds and don't seek to guild the lily / polish the faeces / inform everyone its amazing @ 10 O'clock on the dial, impress my local lodge meeting regularly or worry about my OSD hitting number 11 on the dial when I see a 65 page thread on phase noise  Bottom line if you like it, nothing else matters!
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Post by MartinT on Aug 15, 2024 16:20:05 GMT
But please clarify the rules of the game - what fuses and what budget - £50, £500, £5000? And what component would they go in for this test? I can quote £20 (AMR), £50 (HiFi Tuning) and £200 (SR) fuses from personal experience. You can hear the differences. As to what component, that can vary but generally I find source/DAC makes the most difference. |
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Post by julesd68 on Aug 15, 2024 18:02:21 GMT
But please clarify the rules of the game - what fuses and what budget - £50, £500, £5000? And what component would they go in for this test? I can quote £20 (AMR), £50 (HiFi Tuning) and £200 (SR) fuses from personal experience. You can hear the differences. As to what component, that can vary but generally I find source/DAC makes the most difference. Ok I will take up the challenge but not immediately. |
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📶NAS > Gustard x26p DAC > Benchmark LA4 Pre-Amp > NAD M22-V2 Amplifier > Revel F228Be Speakers
