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Post by pinkie on Jan 14, 2015 14:16:51 GMT
Here's a review in Positive Feedback of the Synergistic Research SR Red fuse, much of which I agree with. It does seem expensive, but based on what I've heard from using three of them (regenerator x 2, power amp), they yield a level of improvement that represents a significant upgrade in sound quality.
Positive Feedback SR Red My signature says it all.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jan 14, 2015 15:36:28 GMT
I tell you what expensive is !
that Pass Labs Pre and that PS Audio P10
Just as well they do the job soooooooooooooo well
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 17:09:55 GMT
Here's a review in Positive Feedback of the Synergistic Research SR Red fuse, much of which I agree with. It does seem expensive, but based on what I've heard from using three of them (regenerator x 2, power amp), they yield a level of improvement that represents a significant upgrade in sound quality.
Positive Feedback SR Red I must admit to being a skeptic regarding fuses, but as have not actually tried any I can't comment any further. Rather, what interests me is how they generate the "2,000,000 volts of electricity" with which the fuses are treated. The last great gasp of Van der Graff generates half that voltage - it is in the Museum of Science Boston. The size and the power of the machine and length of the sparks can be seen here . 1,000,000V from that draws sparks over 1 metre in length. So what precisely are synergistic doing? They cannot have access to an electrostatic generator that generates 2MV - and where would you set up a lab to draw 2 metre sparks? Any modest size generator will be good for 100kV tops. Craig
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 14, 2015 17:36:33 GMT
OK folks... some are being less than pleasant on the whole matter so I'll re-join the fray. I dropped expectation bias a very long time ago, as the only person I have to satisfy is myself. I'm wondering if actually it is possible to shed expectation bias completely, even if you are only interested in your personal findings and noone elses. I would suggest that all of us have some kind of expectation bias operating at a sub-conscious level even if we haven't acknowleged it. A lot of us can invest a lot of time and energy pouring over reviews and forums to help us select their next 'upgrade'. There can often be quite a lot of emotion invested in these decisions (consciously or subconsciously) which must surely influence our evaluation of new items in a positive or negative way. I can certainly say that this could have applied to myself in years gone by. I'm hoping I take a more disspassionate and neutral view now but I won't claim to be entirely free of any expectation bias based on brands / looks / reviews etc I used to make up my mind about new bits of gear *extremely* quickly, possibly as a result of expectations, but have learnt not to do that any more. A case in point would be the Sony ES amp I bought a year or so ago - on initial testing I was wowed by it but keeping it in the system for some weeks I found some traits that I could not live with long term.
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Post by John on Jan 14, 2015 17:48:59 GMT
I guess for both Martin and me the whole expectation bias gets thrown in the air when you are expecting a negative result or not even expecting a result due to the item for instance being cheaper. I am not saying it is no to expectation bias, it just seems overplayed at times.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 14, 2015 17:51:32 GMT
I must admit to being a skeptic regarding fuses, but as have not actually tried any I can't comment any further. Craig (and others), my advice if you want to try a specialist fuse is to buy one 13A AMR Gold and use it in your main system feed or regenerator cable, if you have one, or the highest current device, probably your power amp. If you don't hear a difference, then fair enough and you've only spent £20. If you do hear an improvement, case proved and you can then go on to try more AMRs or an SR Red.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 14, 2015 17:55:29 GMT
Julian & John, I think it is possible to chuck expectation bias. As John says, I've frequently been disappointed with more expensive components and cables where I might have been expected to just go with an 'improvement'. Secondly, your subconscious doesn't lie. As stated by Julian, after a prolonged time listening to something new, you will either experience the discomfort of having taken a backward step, or you're smiling because it really is better.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 19:07:02 GMT
I must admit to being a skeptic regarding fuses, but as have not actually tried any I can't comment any further. Craig (and others), my advice if you want to try a specialist fuse is to buy one 13A AMR Gold and use it in your main system feed or regenerator cable, if you have one, or the highest current device, probably your power amp. If you don't hear a difference, then fair enough and you've only spent £20. If you do hear an improvement, case proved and you can then go on to try more AMRs or an SR Red. Absolutely. I'm skeptical, but not beyond trying something out. Some have expressed skepticism regarding mains cables - and I know not only that they make a perceptible difference by listening, but I also know how they do it. I carried out a series of conducted susceptibilty tests for differences between mains cables, UKAS accredited at 3C Test www.3ctest.co.uk/ . And the better mains cables provide around 25dB reduction in conducted RF, both common and differential mode, as compared with a kettle lead, in the frequency range 10kHz to 2.5GHz. 3C test themselves were darned skeptical to the point that I had to persuade them to do the measurements - they actually only agreed because I have spent a shed load of money with them in the past. Incidentally, this is what 2,000,000V looks like . This is actually proof positive that absolutely the best place to be in a thunderstorm is in your car (=Faraday Cage), but I absolutely guarantee that a Red, or any other, 13A fuse would have blown ;-) Craig
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Post by MartinT on Jan 14, 2015 19:11:55 GMT
That's very interesting indeed, Craig. You're the first person I've heard of who has conducted proper tests on mains cables. I've suspect for a long time that it's about RF reduction, not just cable resistance, but it's good to hear it backed up by measurement. Strike one for a measurement that confirms what we hear!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 20:00:18 GMT
A few turns of cable on a ferrite toroid will reduce RF fantastically and is the standard cure for RF based EMI. This will work with any old kettle lead and does not need money spending on the problem.... I very much doubt the 25dB from 10KHz to 2.5GHz reported by Craig.. too big a reduction over too wide a bandwidth.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 20:23:27 GMT
A few turns of cable on a ferrite toroid will reduce RF fantastically and is the standard cure for RF based EMI. This will work with any old kettle lead and does not need money spending on the problem.... I very much doubt the 25dB from 10KHz to 2.5GHz reported by Craig.. too big a reduction over too wide a bandwidth. Jez, do not call my credibility into question. Am I being crystal clear? For hard information: Worst case narrow band frequencies 210MHz, 450MHz and 830MHz when the attenuation is around 5dB as compared with the kettle lead. At all other frequencies between 10kHz and 1GHz the attenuation compared with kettle lead is >12db, and in the range 500MHz to 800MHz 20-25dB. At no frequency from 10kHz to 1GHZ does the kettle lead provide better RF performance. And that Jez is absolutely all you are going to get, ever from me. But never, ever insult me.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 14, 2015 20:50:51 GMT
Guys, the information presented here is too important to cloud it with insults. Please desist but by all means continue the debate.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 21:13:13 GMT
A few turns of cable on a ferrite toroid will reduce RF fantastically and is the standard cure for RF based EMI. This will work with any old kettle lead and does not need money spending on the problem.... I very much doubt the 25dB from 10KHz to 2.5GHz reported by Craig.. too big a reduction over too wide a bandwidth. Jez, do not call my credibility into question. Am I being crystal clear? For hard information: Worst case narrow band frequencies 210MHz, 450MHz and 830MHz when the attenuation is around 5dB as compared with the kettle lead. At all other frequencies between 10kHz and 1GHz the attenuation compared with kettle lead is >12db, and in the range 500MHz to 800MHz 20-25dB. At no frequency from 10kHz to 1GHZ does the kettle lead provide better RF performance. And that Jez is absolutely all you are going to get, ever from me. But never, ever insult me. I didn't insult you Deleted violation rule 3 Amazing that all those foo companies with so mething to prove have been unable to offer any repeatable measurements to back up their claims and that in fact Russ Andrews was told by the ASA to stop making claims that he could not prove.... and yet you come along and solve the problem just like that... amazing! Consider yourself on my personal ignore list.
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Post by ChrisB on Jan 14, 2015 21:29:04 GMT
OK. Again, please would you try to prevent this becoming more heated? There is some over-reaction as well as some ill-advised choice of words going on and we don't want this to spiral into anything worse.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 22:05:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 22:10:45 GMT
OK. Again, please would you try to prevent this becoming more heated? There is some over-reaction as well as some ill-advised choice of words going on and we don't want this to spiral into anything worse. Check. Agreed with entirely Chris. Craig
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Post by pinkie on Jan 15, 2015 8:05:24 GMT
In my limited time (relatively) on forums, I've learned you can't beat mains cables for a good punch up.
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Post by pinkie on Jan 15, 2015 8:22:06 GMT
That's very interesting indeed, Craig. You're the first person I've heard of who has conducted proper tests on mains cables. I've suspect for a long time that it's about RF reduction, not just cable resistance, but it's good to hear it backed up by measurement. Strike one for a measurement that confirms what we hear! What is the proper test? How have those tests demonstrated that a mains cable affects the sound. I repeat the comment made (originally with reference to your mains regenerator plots, way back at the start). If you want to measure the effect of mains on the sound, measure it on the output of the amplifier - not the input to its power supply. I believe you can measure noise down to -130db (but my reference I would have preferred to check with is on holiday in Teneriffe atm, so I could have that wrong) Again - I can measure the voltage on my houses domestic mains, and show it changes, from day to day. That doesn't show it affects the sound from my HiFi. I can change the DC voltage supplied to the Pip (within limits) and it won't change the amplifiers sound. I discussed adding the dual mono power supply to the Quad 405-2 mods carried out for me recently, and got the comment back "if you are going to do it, then it needs to be true dual - not 2 windings round a common core, BUT THE CURRENT DRAWN BY THE AMPLIFIER COMES FROM THE RESERVOIR CAPACITORS. THE TRANSFORMER IS ONLY TOPPING THEM UP. So it will have no affect." Just because I can measure something, doesn't mean it has a causal link with sound quality. I can measure the length of the carpet. I refer you again to my (recently revised) signature. And there is another issue, which I will repeat in this post. Never mind scientific measurements, still NOBODY in my experience has ever provided a convincing demonstration that a difference in ANY mains cable or fuse can be heard. When I tried an "audiophile" mains cable i could hear no difference - and as predicted before the test, was told I had inadequate hearing, the wrong sort of mains, or an insufficiently audiophile cable. (I should note 2 respected HiFi designers are keen for me to do listening tests for them after January). At a show - running a dem room, where he could almost certainly borrow one buck-shee, if Arthur thought an exotic mains lead would change the sound of his dem system, he would fit it. None of my experience in HiFi has ever produced a credible, non Emperor's new clothes, demonstration that a mains cable changes the sound. Together with the science, that is suggestive that it doesn't change the sound. There is a strong odour of decaying marine life about this paradox.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 15, 2015 8:52:27 GMT
I've gone well past the point of worrying about formal tests or whether other people can hear differences between power cables. To me it's audible and obvious. I certainly wouldn't have spent what I have on a whim. It's real and has made a large improvement to my system. I don't need you to believe me, I only ask that members try it for themselves. If they don't hear it, then fair enough and it's a valid opinion.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jan 15, 2015 8:59:28 GMT
I've heard improvements from mains cables as well as the supports.
The other half rarely has a clue what I'm doing, but 90% of the time she says "that ones better" and it is the improvement
I started as a sceptic about mains cables. Could not see how they could affect the sound. In my system from about 9 years ago, changing various I have found more and more improvements in sound quality
I can hear it. THe other half can hear it. Her son can hear it on the rare occasions he has been in on testing.
I have no idea why people cannot hear the improvements I can hear but this is their ears and their set up in their place
What is the key to deciding ?
I'm over the moon with the recent improvements and I'll be going with the fuses. If they work I'll say so
If they *don't* work I will be well teed off - and will say so
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