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Post by pinkie on Jan 12, 2015 18:20:27 GMT
Richard I can't believe this mad stuff works. If I take it out the sound degrades. When I forgot to put the granite back on the Isis Friday with Martin I thought the sound was off in some way. Granite back on, nice improvement. If I take everything away the system will sound nothing like as good as it does now. The other half often has no idea what I'm doing and always says "the first (or second) sounded best" I'm not disputing that Mike. I'm only disputing that your ears are the sole evaluation equipment, given what we know about listening and hearing and other factors like vision and knowledge. I'm also puzzled that I worked with a bunch of guys who were passionate about this stuff, and none of us were able to share the experiences you refer to. And, based on very recent discussions, we all seem to still be that way
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Post by MartinT on Jan 12, 2015 19:03:02 GMT
OK folks... some are being less than pleasant on the whole matter so I'll re-join the fray. I don't think anyone has been particularly unpleasant towards you, Jez. You're the one telling us we're suffering from expectation bias, etc. Do you really think that's the case? That we're completely unable to eliminate expectation bias in our evaluations? Goodness knows the number of times I've tried something and been disappointed at the result. I've even downgraded (in terms of price) my interconnects, speaker and power cables from vastly more expensive ones to ones that I find sound better. How does that work, then? I could feel insulted, but honestly this is a forum and everyone has a right to an opinion. You should give us credit for listening to music over many years and being able to tell worse from better. I dropped expectation bias a very long time ago, as the only person I have to satisfy is myself. Mains 13A fuses changing anything is just as ridiculous. You've already suggested that I should know better, having been an electronics engineer. Well, I do know better in one respect - what I have learned is that we cannot as yet measure everything we hear. The engineer in me is fascinated, the music lover just says "it sounds better, keep it".
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Post by John on Jan 12, 2015 19:14:31 GMT
OK folks... some are being less than pleasant on the whole matter so I'll re-join the fray. First of all I do not believe this is a matter of personal opinion. It's either right or it's wrong. Expectation bias is completely to blame for the effects some believe they hear. Hundreds of years of scientific method and we're supposed to accept biased personal and wholly subjective opinion which can't be backed up with any form of verification? No one asking you to accept someone else view point in fact I positively encourage you to have your own view point. As much as I celebrate my own view point. I would totally disagree about your views on expectation bias as a rationale for this. I have had to many experiences when I had the opposite experience of this to ring true. I do however think the brain sometime can easily be tricked and it is healthy to question our knowledge no matter if it is biased on subjective or imperial evidence (both can be manipulated). If you ever come to down to London I am more than happy to do a blind test in my system with music I know between a kettle cable and the cable I use. The only thing I would ask we both be honest around our feedback and it is taken as a fun exercise. I am sorry if I seem to be unpleasant I can ensure you that is not where I am coming from
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Post by MartinT on Jan 12, 2015 19:37:41 GMT
See here for my latest findings tonight, introducing another SR Red into my system.
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Post by Greg on Jan 12, 2015 20:07:07 GMT
I've experimented with mains cables and for me concluded they do not make a difference. In consequence I am happy to use the bog standard kettle lead to supply my units. I do have a dedicated updated spur from my consumer unit to supply the hi-Fi. I also experimented with mains conditioning/filtering and found that filters can affect the sound, in my case in particular, the introduction of a DIY 'Swampy' filter dulled the sound of my system if it was used in the mains line to my valve pre and power amps. This was not only demonstrated to my realisation but was acknowledged by everyone else in the room during a test and also by others who tried it elsewhere. The filter did not have this impact on digital source equipment and I still use it for my CD player, Beresford Capella and Caiman II, TV and cable box. It will also be used with the 'Slice' when it arrives.
I also have some thoughts on fuses. Firstly I fail to understand how they can be directional when they are fitted in an alternating current feed. I cannot tell the difference between fancy plated fuses and standard types. Where I have found they do make a difference is when a higher from standard amperage fuse is used to replace the standard fitted. To qualify that, I am a DIYer and have built and modified my own valve amps from kits. Several years ago, a number of us with the same amp kits experimented wth the AC fuse in the IEC input socket. Once the amps had been thoroughly tested and deemed safe we increased the value of the chassis fuse from the standard 1.6 amp slow blow to up to 5 amp rating. In that circumstance there was a noticeable improvement in sound quality, revealed and commonly acknowledged by most others who tried it as bringing a fuller and more authoritive element to the sound. The sound was thinner when reverting back to the standard value.
I also recognise that interconnects, speaker and internal signal wires can all sound different and we can select those that we personally prefer or maybe work more synergistically with the rest of our kit. I make all my own cables and would never entertain paying the rip off finished cable prices cable manufacturers/suppliers demand.
However, I believe this whole thing remains very much only measurable on a subjective level and therefore by definition, it remains unmeasurable. What I have found is when I make changes, and others listen to the changes I have made, they also can identify the sound improvements or degradation the changes have made. Therefore, although it is a subjective individual observation, it is interesting that the affect of changes can be recognised equally and in agreement with others listening.
Just my tu'pence worth.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 20:09:12 GMT
There is a problem in all this cable /fuse 'improvement'. Systems sound different depending on time of day, warm up or mood of the listener or even temporary wax in the ears. If you change something you are looking for a difference. Often you hear it but is it an improvement or just a difference. Even if there is a difference is it really that much. I suggest taking the fuses out after a few days and going back to new standard ones. Then ask if it is worse or better? Some changes appear better but months later when you remove them it's better again. Also has anyone taken these fuses apart. The innards have to conform to relevant BS standard and rating so in what way is the bit that transfers power different? You can't attribute the improvement to the fancy case or likely even gold or silver plating. One thing I can verify through experience is replacing the recommended 5 amp fuse on a Cd player with 13 amp improves sound. Obviously a bottleneck but you can't legally go above 13 amp. So only improvement is likely no fuse which means you would need a 15 amp fused spur.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 20:10:43 GMT
OK folks... some are being less than pleasant on the whole matter so I'll re-join the fray. First of all I do not believe this is a matter of personal opinion. It's either right or it's wrong. Expectation bias is completely to blame for the effects some believe they hear. Hundreds of years of scientific method and we're supposed to accept biased personal and wholly subjective opinion which can't be backed up with any form of verification? No one asking you to accept someone else view point in fact I positively encourage you to have your own view point. As much as I celebrate my own view point. I would totally disagree about your views on expectation bias as a rationale for this. I have had to many experiences when I had the opposite experience of this to ring true. I do however think the brain sometime can easily be tricked and it is healthy to question our knowledge no matter if it is biased on subjective or imperial evidence (both can be manipulated). If you ever come to down to London I am more than happy to do a blind test in my system with music I know between a kettle cable and the cable I use. The only thing I would ask we both be honest around our feedback and it is taken as a fun exercise. I am sorry if I seem to be unpleasant I can ensure you that is not where I am coming from Much as I disagree with your findings it was not you who has been less than pleasant about it.... Some may remember that it was just this type of argument with Marco that led to my being banned from AOS (yes I refused to back down). To cut a long story short he reckoned it was ok for people to make the most ridiculous claims about cables, supports etc, which usually rail against the laws of physics, but it was not ok for me to claim that these things were foo and therefore expectation bias must be the cause of peoples "findings"..... People could claim that placing turquoise cotton pom poms in empty bio yoghurt pots on top of the speakers improved the sound... all they had to do was claim "but I heard the improvement" and I was supposed to not question it..... or query their judgement! sorry but that's not how I do things!
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Post by John on Jan 12, 2015 20:31:21 GMT
There is a problem in all this cable /fuse 'improvement'. Systems sound different depending on time of day, warm up or mood of the listener or even temporary wax in the ears. If you change something you are looking for a difference. Often you hear it but is it an improvement or just a difference. Even if there is a difference is it really that much. I suggest taking the fuses out after a few days and going back to new standard ones. Then ask if it is worse or better? Some changes appear better but months later when you remove them it's better again. Also has anyone taken these fuses apart. The innards have to conform to relevant BS standard and rating so in what way is the bit that transfers power different? You can't attribute the improvement to the fancy case or likely even gold or silver plating. One thing I can verify through experience is replacing the recommended 5 amp fuse on a Cd player with 13 amp improves sound. Obviously a bottleneck but you can't legally go above 13 amp. So only improvement is likely no fuse which means you would need a 15 amp fused spur. Some interesting points Agree impressions change, that why always good to go back after awhile and check to see if your findings still ring true.
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Post by John on Jan 12, 2015 20:37:38 GMT
Jez no one wants you to change your view point. I like your no nonsense approach to audio design You have mentioned in the past that you learned some lessons from AOS in being a bit more accepting and that others will also think differently
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Post by Greg on Jan 12, 2015 20:44:56 GMT
There are probably a few Peter Belt disciples that would happily agree with Pom poms in yoghurt pots on top of speakers ? On most of these issues I am an agnostic and maybe that is a way to go for you. If someone else hears an improvement and I do not, does that invalidate the others experience? Because there is no scientific explanation for a claimed improvement, does that invalidate that experience of others? You can question or query judgement as much as you like, but if a recipient claims they experience a sound difference and you can't find a scientific explanation for it, that does not invalidate their experience and if it enhances their listening enjoyment, explained or otherwise, I simply settle to accept it. Yep, it might all be psycho-acoustics or expectation bias, but even then, if the experience to the listener is real, who are we sceptics to challenge what they perceive? PS, I have been banned from AOS twice! Both times for challenging some of Marco's ridiculous claims. The second membership was granted when this forum floated and he was clearly troubled by it's potential to steal contributors from AOS. Nevertheless, in no time he was writing rubbish I had to challenge and got written off again. Good to see what I believe is a gradual move of others from there to here and also that Marco is banned here as well. Long may it continue .
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Post by John on Jan 12, 2015 20:49:20 GMT
Hey Greg I love you relating me to Peter Belt. All I am saying is everyone has a unique experience and certainly not advocating Peter Belt principles I actually really liked your post not sure why you having a personal dig
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Post by Greg on Jan 12, 2015 20:55:05 GMT
Hi John,
Sorry, this was not directed at you at all. It was in response to Jez's comment about Pom poms. Just for once, posting here has been very quick with several contributors joining in and the posts all got separated taking them out of context. No dig mate, and even if you were a Beltist, I'd not think anything less of you :-)
Greg
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Post by John on Jan 12, 2015 20:58:40 GMT
No worries Greg It was hard to be clear on forums sometimes I am certainly not a Beltist!
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Post by MartinT on Jan 12, 2015 21:30:16 GMT
I applaud the different views here. No-one is going to get banned for have a different opinion - that's not what we do. The debate is healthy and we can only relate our own experiences, make comparisons and perhaps learn something in the process!
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Post by topalwaysdown on Jan 12, 2015 21:32:32 GMT
I have just worked my way through all the posts in this mighty thread, as a poor mechanical engineer all this high tech electrical information I need a wee lie down and a dram, a large one whilst my brain denumbs and all(or some) of it makes sense, on a negative note I cam almost feel my wallet unlocking and funds escaping to try a fancy shmancy fuse.
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Post by ChrisB on Jan 12, 2015 21:42:37 GMT
Personally, I think that fancy fuses, cables, Beltism, and, yes, even pom-poms are all fine if they make your life richer for using them. The theory, or otherwise is irrelevant if it makes you enjoy your music more - even if you are imagining it. Go for yer life!
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Post by pinkie on Jan 12, 2015 21:54:52 GMT
In my limited time (relatively) on forums, I've learned you can't beat mains cables for a good punch up. A lot of mention has been made of expectation bias. I share Jez's views that expectation bias is probably the leading mainstream scientific explanation for auditioners hearing effects which science treats as impossible. Obviously those preferring to trust their own subjective abilities will be confident of their abilities to eliminate such factors (again, in the face of mainstream scientific findings). I can only observe again, that however "real" the subjective findings are, nobody has ever demonstrated them, that I am aware of. I have posted similar comments numerous times, and never been referred to a credible example of subjective proof of an individuals ability to demonstrate they can hear a difference. That's never. Nil times. In my early days at PT the fashion was for green felt pen round the edge of a CD. I remember a show / demo (Linn actually - where I first heard your beloved Isobariks Mike) at Wrotham, where there was heated discussion about which green felt pen was superior and authentic "audiophile". The efficacy of green felt pen was so proven to those espousing it that to play cd's without colouring their edge first was to miss most of the music on them. And today - not a green pen in sight. It is curious how the likes of mains cables, which should be easy to demonstrate really - just one cable or one fuse, have never been demonstrated effectively. Of course, why should someone who benefits from the ability to perceive these benefits need to prove themselves? Individually of course they don't. But when nobody is able to do it ever, I find myself reflecting on the future and green felt pens.
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Post by Greg on Jan 12, 2015 21:57:53 GMT
Personally, I think that fancy fuses, cables, Beltism, and, yes, even pom-poms are all fine if they make your life richer for using them. The theory, or otherwise is irrelevant if it makes you enjoy your music more - even if you are imagining it. Go for yer life! Exactly. I may have and reserve personal judgements, but I will not attack anyone else's positive listening experience even if I do not understand how they arrive at their personal nirvana.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 12, 2015 22:28:28 GMT
And today - not a green pen in sight. My Auric Illuminator kit comes with a black pen, LOL!
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Post by MartinT on Jan 14, 2015 13:07:46 GMT
Here's a review in Positive Feedback of the Synergistic Research SR Red fuse, much of which I agree with. It does seem expensive, but based on what I've heard from using three of them (regenerator x 2, power amp), they yield a level of improvement that represents a significant upgrade in sound quality.
Positive Feedback SR Red
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