bencat
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Post by bencat on Jan 12, 2024 14:44:35 GMT
I have been listening to music for many years and heard quite a good few speakers and in the main they have been placed away from the listener and firing in to the room . I recently visited a friend Graham as he had bought some Wilson Bensch Arc speakers and I had only ever heard the very large Wilson floor standers . I have visited Graham quite a few times and was very surprised when I entered to find these very small stand mounts well over half way in to the room and about a meter from the listening position facing straight ahead .
Talking to Graham he said that this placement worked incredibly well and in particular for the stereo sound stage and imaging . So sat down and my head told me this was going to sound like using a large pair of head phones and things were going to be very much in my face . Well scrub that I was completely wrong not only was the sound top class but there was a very wide and large soundstage created behind the speakers and towards the very back of the room . I was I have to confess amazed at how good things sounded . Depending on the recording the soundstage was large or in some cases huge with real depth and width and in many cases height as well . It became quite clear when a vocalist like Sara K was recorded sitting down playing the acoustic , compared to Cassandra Wilson standing tall front and centre in to a Mic .
Now before anyone says it yes I know that this sort of placement is not really acceptable domestically and many have to share a room with the family . It is also not practical with children about ans there is only going to be bad things happening . But the effect is stunning . So when I got home I wanted to at least try this at home and see if the same thing happened . But my only passive system uses Quad ESL 57 and they are not really the same as moving coil driver speakers . Still I had to give it a go and did bring the Quads over half way in to the room while Linda was out at work . Huge let down the Quads did not work at all really sound was still in front of the speakers and it only became acceptable with lots of toe in but there was nothing behind the speakers still . All was not wasted though as I was able to find a new set up with the Quads moved back with a decent toe in and closer to the back wall which made things better for my everyday listening .
But this was still bothering me so next time Linda was out at work (today) Graham came over and brought a small pair of Wharfdales and some stands . We then set them up about a meter from my listening position and pointing straight down the room . Started the music off and there it was no sound coming from in front of the speakers instead a huge soundstage constructed behind them . Things as they should changed with each different recording but there is no doubt for me that this set up made the whole sound more convincing . I can fully understand that no speaker mfg is ever going to suggest this set up as they are supposedly making speakers for good sound and domestic acceptability . But are they aware of this effect ? I have never seen it used in any demonstration and in truth never seen it suggested or mentioned . It does not work with Quads but the small stand mounts (all ported) I have now heard it with have all done the same trick .
If any of you can please give this a try and see what you hear ?
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Post by palace on Jan 12, 2024 15:14:26 GMT
I have been listening to music for many years and heard quite a good few speakers and in the main they have been placed away from the listener and firing in to the room . I recently visited a friend Graham as he had bought some Wilson Bensch Arc speakers and I had only ever heard the very large Wilson floor standers . I have visited Graham quite a few times and was very surprised when I entered to find these very small stand mounts well over half way in to the room and about a meter from the listening position facing straight ahead .
Talking to Graham he said that this placement worked incredibly well and in particular for the stereo sound stage and imaging . So sat down and my head told me this was going to sound like using a large pair of head phones and things were going to be very much in my face . Well scrub that I was completely wrong not only was the sound top class but there was a very wide and large soundstage created behind the speakers and towards the very back of the room . I was I have to confess amazed at how good things sounded . Depending on the recording the soundstage was large or in some cases huge with real depth and width and in many cases height as well . It became quite clear when a vocalist like Sara K was recorded sitting down playing the acoustic , compared to Cassandra Wilson standing tall front and centre in to a Mic .
Now before anyone says it yes I know that this sort of placement is not really acceptable domestically and many have to share a room with the family . It is also not practical with children about ans there is only going to be bad things happening . But the effect is stunning . So when I got home I wanted to at least try this at home and see if the same thing happened . But my only passive system uses Quad ESL 57 and they are not really the same as moving coil driver speakers . Still I had to give it a go and did bring the Quads over half way in to the room while Linda was out at work . Huge let down the Quads did not work at all really sound was still in front of the speakers and it only became acceptable with lots of toe in but there was nothing behind the speakers still . All was not wasted though as I was able to find a new set up with the Quads moved back with a decent toe in and closer to the back wall which made things better for my everyday listening .
But this was still bothering me so next time Linda was out at work (today) Graham came over and brought a small pair of Wharfdales and some stands . We then set them up about a meter from my listening position and pointing straight down the room . Started the music off and there it was no sound coming from in front of the speakers instead a huge soundstage constructed behind them . Things as they should changed with each different recording but there is no doubt for me that this set up made the whole sound more convincing . I can fully understand that no speaker mfg is ever going to suggest this set up as they are supposedly making speakers for good sound and domestic acceptability . But are they aware of this effect ? I have never seen it used in any demonstration and in truth never seen it suggested or mentioned . It does not work with Quads but the small stand mounts (all ported) I have now heard it with have all done the same trick .
If any of you can please give this a try and see what you hear ?
bencat I remember Jimmy Hughes trying something similar decades ago he also placed speakers moved into the room with the cones/fronts facing the rear wall, not a placement that works in a domestic environment though maybe in a dedicated music room. As for Quad 57's, being that they are di-poles preferable raised up 10" to 12", they require the rear output to bounce off the rear & side walls & indeed if an oblong shoe box shape room as my lounge 19' x 10.5' x 8' is, also bouncing off the end wall behind your head if you get it right there is limited cancelation indeed enhancement as with my bass, as you have found Quad 57's closer than usually suggested by the usual published "Quad law" to the rear wall can be exceptionally good. I have written before that over the 40 plus years with Quad 57's in the same lounge I have tried innumerable positions & now they are virtually full on/flat across the room, the left one is within 18" or so to a floor to celling record cabinet in a 2' deep with 2' deep gaps either side the right hand side is 10" from the massive shelf supporting the turntable the 4 feet beneath is the equipment shelf alcove again 2' deep the Quad 57 vents into this the rear wall/alcove, they are placed 6" from the side walls. I suggest that my situation/placement is unique not least because my wife has given me the far end of the lounge to play & furnished accordingly |
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Post by ajski2fly on Jan 12, 2024 15:15:57 GMT
I used to have a pair of WB ARCs, and very good they are, I would not really describe then as small stand mounts, but I suppose it may be what you are used to. The front baffles off mine were 1.2 to 1.6m from the rear wall(behind speakers) depending upon fruity arrangement at the time. The room was 22' by 12' and they were position about 2' from each side wall so about 7' apart from at the speakers centres. I used to sit about 8' to 10' away from them, which was most practical, and is in keeping with most speaker placement recommendations, I found a slight toe in worked best , this is quite useful www.cardas.com/system-setupI have a similar set up in our current lounge with my Wilson Benesch Vectors, which were in the same line as the ARCs but are 2.5 floor standers. I get the soundstage and focus you describe, with very clear imaging. |
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Post by MartinT on Jan 12, 2024 17:50:43 GMT
I have heard Wilson Benesch Arc speakers on more than one occasion and have to say that I found them quite disagreeable. I'll say no more.
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bencat
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Posts: 196
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Post by bencat on Jan 12, 2024 20:55:02 GMT
I must have the model wrong these are only 12" high so in my view very small. Martin the episode today used Wharfdale speakers so your view of Arc,s is fine . Try this with any small floorstander and we what you hear it is the placement and the effect I am taking about .Also to be clear unlike Jimmy these speakers were facing forward and not pointing towards the back wall .
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Post by John on Jan 13, 2024 6:57:34 GMT
I have read that some audiophiles do have similar placements, but I cannot remember which country it was. There was these other speakers that were placed adjenct to the ears I remember Howard use to rate them.
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Post by Tobias on Jan 13, 2024 8:35:18 GMT
I have ended up with that exact setup in my small (almost) dedicated listening space.
The reason i got there was issues with the bass since i was sitting in the middle of the room, where there where no bass.
I then thought -what if i turn everything around and place the speakers in the middle of the room instead and sit where the bass is?
It turned out exactly like you are describing, and i also ended up with the speakers with no toe-in.
Since then, i have also moved my sub into the room (away from the walls) and right next to my seating position, after reading about that on RELs site, for an optimal nearfield setup. This improved the bass quality tremendously for me.
I have to say that this setup has really surprised me and the bass and soundstage depth is now extra ordinary, i feel. (from my limited knowledge perpective)
There are issues with such a setup also! The main problem is on recordings where some instruments are coming directly from the speakers and some are not...(Which is the case on some recordings) Then this type of setup is not the best since the differences in soundstage depth becomes very apparent and hard not to think about! Even worse is when there is no soundstage at all, then it becomes very clear that the sound is coming directly from the speakers, close to you.
In general, when having a smaller room and a near field setup, i have found that i have gotten better help when reading or watching studio/professional setup and room acoustic guidance. I think in these types of setup the "normal" audiophile/HiFi guidance sometimes does not apply, in my opinion.
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Post by ajski2fly on Jan 14, 2024 14:58:03 GMT
I must have the model wrong these are only 12" high so in my view very small. Martin the episode today used Wharfdale speakers so your view of Arc,s is fine . Try this with any small floorstander and we what you hear it is the placement and the effect I am taking about .Also to be clear unlike Jimmy these speakers were facing forward and not pointing towards the back wall . I suppose they are quite small really, I think its the stands and depth of them that makes them seem bigger than they are. As for how they sound they can be a tricky speaker to position, and I found sounded best with the volume up a bit. Power Handling: 200W peak unclipped programme Maximum SPL: 111dB at 1 metre Dimensions: 301 (H) x 230 (W) x 370 (D) mm (Height with stand: 950 mm) Internal volume: 10.5 litres Weight: 10kg (with stand 22kg)  |
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