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Post by ajski2fly on Dec 12, 2023 13:10:19 GMT
I thought I would raise this age old HiFi/Audiophile question as I had formed my own views on this topic over the past 40 years or so but very recently some of those pillars of wisdom have been knocked down and I have had to re-assess my views on the matter. The sort os questions being posed relates to for expanse these diverse points of view:- - Any cable will do and anything expensive will make absolutely no difference to the sound of a system.
- Cheap cables are rubbish and result in poor audio quality.
- To get the best from your system you need to invest in at least 10-15% of the total cost of your HiFi system in cables.
- Hi-End(costly) audio cables are just a rip off and make no difference to how a system sounds.
- The conductive material used in a cable has absolutely no effect on how a systems sounds.
- How cables are constructed and insulated makes no difference to how they change the sounds of a system.
- It is all marketing guff so dealers can make big profits and get lots of dosh from selling cables.
I am sure there are many other views on cables but I think these are probably the most voiced, I have put a poll up and you can select up to 3 from it, it covers the above and a few more.
At this point I will not tell you what my thoughts on the subject used to be or what they are now. All I will say is that I have done some personal investigation and experimentation into this recently. All driven by a friend advising me not to change a particular piece of kit but to think cables, I was sceptical, but what I discovered in some aspects was a bit of a shock. I will not go into details immediately but will wait for you to make your own comments and thoughts, and vote accordingly. All I will say is that I used my ears, and a lot of time and did quite a bit of head scratching to get to my currents pillars of wisdom on this contentious topic.
I look forward to hearing your views and the ensuing discussion it will no doubt cause. When we have a few, I will give my thoughts and explain how I came to them.
I hope this will fun and interesting for at least some of us.  |
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Post by MartinT on Dec 12, 2023 14:11:59 GMT
I don't really know why this is a question. For anyone to deny that cables make a difference has either 1) a poor hi-fi system, 2) only poor cables or 3) cloth ears.
Still, there's nothing wrong with debate!
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Post by Slinger on Dec 12, 2023 14:21:25 GMT
I'm talking exclusively about my main system first, not my chop 'n' change second system. The system is a bi-amped NVA (Richard's, not Paul's new versions) setup, comprising an A30 integrated and 2 x A40 Monoblocks a P50 passive pre, and NVA Super Sound Cord interconnects with NVA LS1+LS3 speaker cable. Along with my chosen sources and speakers, I don't honestly think I could improve on the sound with anything I could actually afford. Richard used to talk about synergy, and how everything was designed to work together, and I will bear witness to the fact that it does. My view is that in my case (because generalisation is impossible) - All my systems cables are from one manufacturer because they were designed to work best together.Veering off-topic very slightly, for years I was one of the " It's just 1s and 0s" brigade, but after picking up a very decently priced AudioQuest digital cable for fun, my opinion changed overnight, to coin a phrase. If I can hear a difference after years of nay-saying, believe me, it exists.  I've since discovered the joys of a QED Reference Optical  Quartz and liked it so much that I bought the corresponding QED Reference DIGITAL Audio 40 Coaxial for my second system. Once upon a time I would have laughed in the face of someone who told me they'd just spent seventy or eighty quid on a digital cable. Now, I am that person. Coming full circle, I was sorely tempted to get another QED co-ax for my main system, but it's too much money (for me) just to find out I've upset the synergy of the digital side of my setup. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, although I do realise that is almost a heretical view to espouse on a hifi forum. There will be no going to Hi-Fi Heaven for Slinger when the Rapture comes, and I don't mean those pretty Emille Rapture valve amps.  So, there you go. In my usual long-winded manner I've just said that cables do make a difference, but you can't really make a determination on that unless you've experienced it, and sometimes getting everything from the same manufacturer is the way to go - I don't care HOW well the other bits of wire etc. " test".  |
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Post by julesd68 on Dec 12, 2023 14:33:15 GMT
Excellent, some Christmas controversy!
The debate isn't so much about whether cables make a difference, I *think* we can all move on from that.
As a starter for 10, I wonder how many cables are actually designed in-house as opposed to simply bought in by the metre from the Far East or elsewhere and rebranded?
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Post by Tim on Dec 12, 2023 14:42:20 GMT
It's groundhog day |
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Post by MartinT on Dec 12, 2023 14:48:42 GMT
Missing poll question: I always buy the cables that sound the best, but not necessarily the most expensive
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bencat
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 362
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Post by bencat on Dec 12, 2023 15:10:33 GMT
Do I think cables make a difference my answer is yes they do . However given my financial circumstances there is a very low limit to what I can afford . I am also of the belief that different equipment and combinations can change how any single cable will sound . So for me within my own fixed budget I trial cakes and see what works . Over the years I have come to realise that I like solid core cables mainly for speakers but have used DNM in the past . I have also found that I prefer the sound of copper higher purity the better over silver . Currently I use Audioquest F14 solid core with my NVA S300 power amp and this has been a lovely match and has made me not really look for anything better . This was a £38 buy on ebay for 5 meter pair which were frankly filthy but a clean with soapy water brought them up well . Fitted with solid copper banana plugs no plating material and they work just as I want them .
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Post by palace on Dec 12, 2023 18:11:49 GMT
I make all my own cables, to ensure quality & be pension friendly. Except for 2 that are optical cables, annealed pure silver for phono leads, WF100 COAX leads with good quality F type connectors or BNC, low inductance cross connected WF100 COAX TNT UBYTE II speaker cable.
"do interconnects/loudspeaker cables improve a systems sound?" No they can not add anything, however & you can include mains power & AC & DC low voltage power cables which I also make, can allow the system components to perform at their best poor cables can emasculate/strangle the life out of a system. My OTA Quad 57's for example need low inductance speaker cable. All but phono leads festooned with 160 clip on ferrites.
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Post by MartinT on Dec 12, 2023 18:33:18 GMT
I think we can all agree that 'improve' for a cable can be a combination of having the least negative effect on the signal, and removing as much RFI/EMI as possible by either shielding or other techniques?
A difficult enough feat judging by the many and varied products out there seemingly designed to achieve just that.
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Post by brettj on Dec 12, 2023 19:26:11 GMT
Not particularly enamoured with the slant on the poll.
Either cable mania is a rort and those that 'buy in' are fools...
Or quality only equates to expense.
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Post by brettj on Dec 12, 2023 19:26:58 GMT
There is no question that aligns with my view.
After much research, reading, discussion, advice, thinking (and sometimes talking with the manufacturer), I buy the cables that best suit my preferences, budget, and system. And not at retail prices.
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Post by MartinT on Dec 12, 2023 20:56:22 GMT
There is no question that aligns with my view. After much research, reading, discussion, advice, thinking (and sometimes talking with the manufacturer), I buy the cables that best suit my preferences, budget, and system. And not at retail prices. For me, too. That's why I said "Missing poll question: I always buy the cables that sound the best, but not necessarily the most expensive" I will admit, after years of experimenting, that I simply dismiss people who "tell me" I can't be hearing what I can hear. Life is too short for that kind of useless debate now. |
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Post by ajski2fly on Dec 13, 2023 8:25:29 GMT
There is no question that aligns with my view. After much research, reading, discussion, advice, thinking (and sometimes talking with the manufacturer), I buy the cables that best suit my preferences, budget, and system. And not at retail prices. For me, too. That's why I said "Missing poll question: I always buy the cables that sound the best, but not necessarily the most expensive" I will admit, after years of experimenting, that I simply dismiss people who "tell me" I can't be hearing what I can hear. Life is too short for that kind of useless debate for me now. Yes I should have added something along that line "I always buy the cables that sound the best, but not necessarily the most expensive" , but its fine to not agree with any, I did not intend it to be slanted. |
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Post by HD Music & Test on Dec 13, 2023 9:51:31 GMT
Even Shaun changed his cables from the stock bell wire Adie |
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Post by MikeMusic on Dec 13, 2023 10:27:01 GMT
The world we live in at large couldn't even be that generous about cables for hifi
In the rarefied atmosphere of hifi forums there are believers non believers and shades inbetween
There are also deniers, as in so many other areas
Spending more money can give good results but you certainly do *not* get what you pay for except generally
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Post by MartinT on Dec 13, 2023 11:20:40 GMT
In the rarefied atmosphere of hifi forums there are believers non believers and shades inbetween The thing is, it's not a religion. If someone asks me whether I'm "a cable believer", I feel like responding "no, I'm a cable experiencer". |
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Post by MikeMusic on Dec 13, 2023 11:27:10 GMT
In the rarefied atmosphere of hifi forums there are believers non believers and shades inbetween The thing is, it's not a religion. If someone asks me whether I'm "a cable believer", I feel like responding "no, I'm a cable experiencer". Believer / non believer taken from the common vernacular My aim is to have more music |
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Post by palace on Dec 13, 2023 12:03:57 GMT
I think we can all agree that 'improve' for a cable can be a combination of having the least negative effect on the signal, and removing as much RFI/EMI as possible by either shielding or other techniques? A difficult enough feat judging by the many and varied products out there seemingly designed to achieve just that. Cables can & do make a big difference, MartinT was more eloquent/accurate than I was with his "I think we can all agree that 'improve' for a cable can be a combination of having the least negative effect on the signal, and removing as much RFI/EMI as possible by either shielding or other techniques?" Removing RFI/EMI has been my aim for many years as I suffer vast amounts of external RFI/EMI, & mains noise but not DC, initially I fitted 270v VDR's then began using clip on ferrites. My recent exploits with my Croft phono stage that Mark Manwaring-White fitted a pair of SUT's in. this initially exacerbated noise on the phono setting. Using adhesive backed copper foil & steel plates in the Croft I have removed most of the RFI/EMI "noise" emanating from the transformer, further copper foil screening my system from the Virgin Modem has improved everything. There is still a little "noise" but only on phono every other source is deathly silent, I believe in my situation the leads act as aerials despite mine being made from old style high quality air core coax cable centre core copper wire pulled out threaded through the air spaces with pure silver wires with the copper foil/mesh screen connected to ground at one end except one ie the phono to pre-amp plaited insulated silver wire but not screened I have no more air core coax but a new roll of copper foil arrived yesterday... |
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Post by Tim on Dec 13, 2023 12:41:47 GMT
My aim is to have more music Bravo Mike |
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Post by Slinger on Dec 13, 2023 12:51:36 GMT
It's groundhog day The major difference, Tim, is that stuff gets " discussed" here, without people getting all shouty and flouncing off while cursing everyone else in the thread. Now, fuck off and stop being so bloody negative. |
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Quartz and liked it so much that I bought the corresponding QED Reference DIGITAL Audio 40 Coaxial for my second system.
