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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 16, 2024 16:44:39 GMT
Sometimes the answer just comes, even when you are not looking
When I was struggling with coding at work I would often go to the loo or make a cup of tea, brain off - answer arrives - bingo !
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Post by HD Music & Test on Mar 16, 2024 16:53:56 GMT
Here we go chaps some better definitive understanding of why and how the work with signals, my good friend Min has been running his consaultancy company for a few years now and has produced some good informative video's worth a watch for you chaps. We often have intresting discussions of why specific effects occur and why particular branches of electronics are more susceptible to mitraged emc or immunity issues (Metal block on clock anyone?)
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Post by palace on Mar 16, 2024 17:31:23 GMT
Here we go chaps some better definitive undersatnd of why and how the work with signals, my good friend Min has been running hios consaultancy company for a few years now and has produced some good informative video's worth a watch for you chaps. We often have intresting discussions of why specific effects occur and why particular branches of electronics are more susceptible to mitraged emc or immunity issues (Metal block on clock anyone?) I was pleased to see that the second video vindicated my assertion yesterday in the thread "best place for ferrites" in which I postulated that looping wire around a clip on ferrite seemed to work reducing lower frequencies. Having used close to 200 I seem to have got the gist of how they work. Their use on phono leads is in my experience to be avoided... |
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Post by HD Music & Test on Mar 16, 2024 18:09:06 GMT
I would also suggest digital interconnects as well
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Post by palace on Mar 16, 2024 18:57:19 GMT
I would also suggest digital interconnects as well Not in my experience, however your take may be different in your undoubtedly sophisticated set up... |
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Post by HD Music & Test on Mar 16, 2024 19:03:15 GMT
Lots of variables here, how much the noise is being picked up or conducted. I recently went to a chap's place who had the whole length of his cables swaved in ferrites not small ones either. We soon sorted that out and now he is listening to natural unforced music, shocked him somewhat given he is an EE. I did actually show him in situ on the trusty Spectrum analyser and current probes he was genuinelly shocked at ther amount of extra rubbish that was traversing his system.
However every system is different, what works well for one, may in fact kill it stone dead for another.
I would suggest that statigic use of specific value ferrites on usb cables can be advantagous.
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Post by palace on Mar 16, 2024 21:58:46 GMT
Lots of variables here, how much ther noise is being picked up or conducted. I recvently went to a chap's placve who had the whole length of his cables swaved in ferrites not small ones either. We soon sorted that out and now he is listening to natural unforced music, shocked him somewhat given he is an EE. I did actually show him in situ on the trusty Spectrum analyser and current probes he was genuinelly shocked at ther amount of extra rubbish that was traversing his system. However every system is different, what works well for one, may in fact kill it stone dead for another. I would suggest that statigic use of specific value ferrites on usb cables can be advantagous. Having read the above, I have removed 20 or so clip on ferrites from my CD player & DVD player to DAC digital leads. When my wife who has tinnitus goes Grandma sitting tomorrow, I will play some music on both mediums to decide the pros & cons, the Virgin Tivo box & TV have optical connections to the DAC. |
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Post by palace on Mar 17, 2024 12:09:23 GMT
Lots of variables here, how much ther noise is being picked up or conducted. I recently went to a chap's place who had the whole length of his cables swaved in ferrites not small ones either. We soon sorted that out and now he is listening to natural unforced music, shocked him somewhat given he is an EE. I did actually show him in situ on the trusty Spectrum analyser and current probes he was genuinelly shocked at ther amount of extra rubbish that was traversing his system. However every system is different, what works well for one, may in fact kill it stone dead for another. I would suggest that strategic use of specific value ferrites on usb cables can be advantageous. Well my wife is as I type braving the M25 to junction 12 for the M3 to Grandma sit our granddaughter. Having removed all of the ferrites from my digital leads that were indeed festooned with them & have been for at least a decade to help mitigate the aforementioned RFI/EMI 50hz hum both radiated & carried via cables in my system, this was before my copper foil covered power & phono leads. I have HD Music & Test to thank for the really vast improvement in Digital sound both DVD & CD via my Caiman DAC SEG 50, the bass is unbelievable remembering that I use One Thing Audio Quad 57's on Rupert stands I am playing, as I write, the deadmau5 CD while(1<2) which has prodigious electronic bass the CD is filling the room with music it played well before but now is now absolutely bloody effortless & the occasional female voice clear clean & better projected track 10 just played it has the deepest notes on the double CD glass rattled in a wall cabinet, but no strain from the OTA Quad 57's never done that before. I played on DVD The Mikado voices male & female are both clearer sweeter with a natural sounding acoustic. The DVD Brian Wilson & Friends was/is the Beach Boys of old the instruments separation with the "natural" decay is clearer & it was pretty good before voices higher & cleaner. I have run out of superlatives my ears are in the 12.5-13 Khz range but the top end has extended & is fuller. HD Music & Test. Again thank you for your comments. I can only assume my ministrations elsewhere in the system had made the ferrites on Digital that fulfilled a previous need, were not just superfluous but positively degrading the digital sound which is now freer, open & beautiful. 20+ ferrites just appeared on several system power leads TV & my PC monitor picture's improved again what a win win!!! # gobsmacked of Ealing... |
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Post by palace on Mar 17, 2024 13:29:28 GMT
Been playing things I know well, Minnie Riperton Loving You just sent shivers up my spine.
I've reported having light veils lifted before this time the stage,studio, auditorium doors opened & I walked in...
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Post by HD Music & Test on Mar 17, 2024 15:23:52 GMT
Palace, really pleased you took the time to try this out as it costs just some time and patience. A great result all round for you! Please don't feel I am pooh poohing ferrites at all, I'm not I use them virtually every day with a/c & d/c filter designs, but they are just that part of a pi or LP/BP or HP filter which means that at some point of the frequency spectrum they will either let pass or just plain cut off/ allow a middle section of frequenices through and chop off the bottom and top amounts (Band pass) depending on how the filter is engineered or what type of attenuation of frequencies you are trying to achieve.
With digital audio signals the base CD data rate is 1.41Mhz BUT do remember Nyquist theorem is use twice the required sample/data rate you intent to use so that’s 2.82Mhz (Sacd levels wonder how they came to that number lol) and when sampling 192Khz that’s knocking on the door of 20Mhz Humm going to need some very carefully chosen and high specification ferrites for that application that doesn't roll off the upper frequencies or just plain sit on the sound. Would be like asking Martin T to take the belt off his supercharger sacrilege! For USB cables ferrites can help, but again its trial be fire! IMHO A well designed and thought-out system will never use any from ferrite on the digital audio signal pathway (now I know some CD drives and dac use line transformers (small form factors) to help with SPDIF or AES, however these days digital opto couplers which isolation not just signal but voltages are a far less invasive method of doing that Tx's job, imho the SQ is somewhat improved as well. Although the bottom line is this, a box of clip-on ferrites decent range is about £120 give the cost of many items in hifi, if like Palace you live near/within or are effected by RF from many sources I would suggest it is a worthwhile investment, also a couple of buddies could share the cost and experiment with their own systems, you will find a pattern will emerge. Just a thought chaps. |
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Post by palace on Mar 17, 2024 16:24:53 GMT
Palace, really pleased you took the time to try this out as it costs just some time and patience. A great result all round for you! Please don't feel I am pooh poohing ferrites at all, I'm not I use them virtually every day with a/c & d/c filter designs, but they are just that part of a pi or LP/BP or HP filter which means that at some point of the frequency spectrum they will either let pass or just plain cut off/ allow a middle section of frequenices through and chop off the bottom and top amounts (Band pass) depending on how the filter is engineered or what type of attenuation of frequencies you are trying to achieve.
With digital audio signals the base CD data rate is 1.41Mhz BUT do remember Nyquist theorem is use twice the required sample/data rate you intent to use so that’s 2.82Mhz (Sacd levels wonder how they came to that number lol) and when sampling 192Khz that’s knocking on the door of 20Mhz Humm going to need some very carefully chosen and high specification ferrites for that application that doesn't roll off the upper frequencies or just plain sit on the sound. Would be like asking Martin T to take the belt off his supercharger sacrilege! For USB cables ferrites can help, but again its trial be fire! IMHO A well designed and thought-out system will never use any from ferrite on the digital audio signal pathway (now I know some CD drives and dac use line transformers (small form factors) to help with SPDIF or AES, however these days digital opto couplers which isolation not just signal but voltages are a far more invasive method of doing that Tx's job, imho the SQ is somewhat improved as well. Although the bottom line is this, a box of clip-on ferrites decent range is about £120 give the cost of many items in hifi, if like Palace you live near/within or are effected by RF from many sources I would suggest it is a worthwhile investment, also a couple of buddies could share the cost and experiment with their own systems, you will find a pattern will emerge. Just a thought chaps. HD Music & Test. Having read your contributions here at length, it never occured to me that you would dismiss anything without providing a rationale since none was provided ergo they have their place. In my case as written used on various power leads. As you say £120 for good ones, in my case less than a tenner for 20 ferrites of various sizes. they work elsewhere particularly on power leads. A question having removed the ferrites; when playing Rocky Horror Show DVD the opening picture sequence shows a mouth the picture signal is via HDMI leads still covered in ferrites (shit picture without) to TV from the Sony DVD player sound now via de-festooned co-ax to the DAC. Prior to removing the ferrites there appeared to be a noticeable lack of lip-sync in the opening sequence, unless feeding the DAC via optical from the TV, now the lip-sync is closer than it was via co-ax not perfect but closer, could the ferrites have slowed the signal like light through Cesium though not as radically? |
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Post by MartinT on Mar 17, 2024 16:25:51 GMT
It was Tony who told me to "get those ferrites off that cable" when he came over once, and light started to dawn on me as to how they are a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Not only did I remove all snap-chokes from my system, I also removed all the Mad Scientist Magic Tubes, too. Let the cables and isolation do their job. That sense of "sat on" lifted completely with the music allowed to breath, and finally I was on a good path to where I am now.
I only use ferrites to suppress SMPS power supplies of other equipment around the house.
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Post by palace on Mar 17, 2024 16:50:14 GMT
It was Tony who told me to "get those ferrites off that cable" when he came over once, and light started to dawn on me as to how they are a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Not only did I remove all snap-chokes from my system, I also removed all the Mad Scientist Magic Tubes, too. Let the cables and isolation do their job. That sense of "sat on" lifted completely with the music allowed to breath, and finally I was on a good path to where I am now. I only use ferrites to suppress SMPS power supplies of other equipment around the house. Because of the surfeit of EMI/RFI & noise on the 240v mains at my location I have to use them on TV HDMI leads, power leads & ethernet from Virgin Hub 4 to Virgin Tivo box even though it is shielded CAT 8. "That sense of "sat on" lifted completely with the music allowed to breath" sums it up well I only experimented with ferrites on phono leads taking them off had the same feeling of removing the "sat on" feeling. |
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Post by stellabagpuss on Mar 17, 2024 17:17:38 GMT
lt's certainly a interesting subject RF & EMF interference. I used to used Ferrites many years ago, but like MartinT, l found it was almost like using Dolby B, noise gone, but things get rolled off.
These days l use Rochelle Salts, but there isn't any perfect solution to noise, if it works for you...excellent.
There are so many things transmitted these days... you have to experiment. You may live near a transmitter, or your neighbour could be using PLT Internet via LAN.. Which is the ultimate devil in interference.
Bottom line..Your happy.. Which is great.
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Post by HD Music & Test on Mar 17, 2024 18:45:42 GMT
lt's certainly a interesting subject RF & EMF interference. I used to used Ferrites many years ago, but like MartinT, l found it was almost like using Dolby B, noise gone, but things get rolled off. These days l use Rochelle Salts, but there isn't any perfect solution to noise, if it works for you...excellent. There are so many things transmitted these days... you have to experiment. You may live near a transmitter, or your neighbour could be using PLT Internet via LAN.. Which is the ultimate devil in interference. Bottom line..Your happy.. Which is great. Absolutely Damien,
Currently I have five methods of electrical interference noise surpression/absorbtion and dissipation. Vibration control three and with a/c shite removal now five as well. Is the hassle worth it?
All I can say is that I listen to liquid music every day (when i have time lol) and that for myself is game over.
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Post by palace on Mar 19, 2024 12:35:30 GMT
How do you power the Virgin modem ? Needs ferrite chokes on the PSU at least or better still with deeper pockets a Zero Zone PSU Having removed the Clip on ferrites from all of the digital leads at the suggestion of HD Music & Test I had a few spare, in the corner of the lounge at the other end to the system sitting on a wall mounted purpose made record cabinet with adjustable "clamps" is my PC & monitor. Yesterday I bent down to pick up something I dropped, I noticed tucked under the record cabinet, 2 switching PSU's for the PC & monitor each had a couple of clip on ferrites, wheels creaked & ground round in my head, they are on the same ring main as the sound/TV system so each got a few more clip on ferrites. I was not grossly surprised that the TV & PC monitor are pictures even sharper, I am again playing The Mikado DVD via the Caiman SEG 50 voices even more natural & in an even bigger acoustic, I played the Carpenters LP The Singles (Richard Carpenter hated Best of/Greatest hits albums) whilst listening enraptured to an album I have owned since release in 1973. I actually heard on a couple of tracks infill notes? or sounds I had never wittingly noticed before in all that time. Everything I have written so far about sonic improvements obtained by removing EMI/RFI 50hz hum & 240v mains noise from the system has related to the Croft phono stage, the MC7R pre-amp, Caiman SEG 50 & Atlas Magnum power amp. My speakers are One Thing Audio Quad 57's being mains connected electrostatic's ie the signal from the power amp uses mains power & transformer's together with circuitry to raise the voltage to around 6kv to perforated plates either side of a thin very lite diaphragm one side plate positive the other plate negative causing them to vibrate audibly whilst producing virtually no distortion, there are 3 such panels in each speaker arranged vertically side by side, simply the center one for treble the 2 outers bass. It occurs to me that the vast increase in clarity & particularly the depth of the bass must in some part be attributed to the OTA Quad 57's since they contain transformers & circuitry they are likely to be affected by the same problems that the rest of the system. The OTA Quad 57's like all Quad 57's for safety are encased in perforated metal panels front, rear & sides a "near" perfect Faraday cage, the Trojan Horse being the mains lead, my leads are protected from radiated interference having wrapped them in copper foil creating an effective faradaic cage grounded to the 13 amp plug earth pin for safety. That leaves noise ingress via the 240v mains. I postulate that removing some noise like the 2 switching PSU's from the mains supply has allowed the OTA Q 57's to function as designed in the 1950's when mains was 250v with little serious interference other than as I remember the crackling from even in Fulham the rare passing motor vehicles. |
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Post by palace on Mar 21, 2024 8:59:51 GMT
A contributor on another forum who used to professionally design/build Electrostatic speakers, was kind enough to correct an error in my description of the Quad electrostatic speaker operation.
quote: "In electrostatic speakers its the diaphragm between the two stator plates that is polarized by a high voltage step up circuit to many kilovolts. This is indeed powered from the mains.
When I was involved in designing such speakers ( a long time ago) it was found that as the HV on the diaphragm would remain long after it was disconnected from the mains you could run it like this for quite a while. When we did this we often thought that the speaker sounded better. At the time we thought it might be due to the diodes in the step up circuit so we changed them but it didn't completely solve the problem. It's quite likely that it was partly due to mains borne interference as you have found. It's a pity we didn't know that at the time". :end.
Thank's to this erudite clarification on ESL operation, so not only are the stator plates connected to a transformer there is an EHT unit to provide high voltage to the diaphragm. it indicates i'm on the right tack just having someone with practical experience verify that my assertions may indeed be correct helps me in my ongoing quest to improve my system...
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Post by palace on Mar 25, 2024 13:00:56 GMT
Additional to my comments about removing clip on ferrites from the digital leads/cables & attaching them to AC power leads & particularly to the switching PSU leads for my computer & monitor screen plugged into the same ring main as the system.
Doing the above worked well, then I remembered on a visit to One Thing Audio chatting about my noise problem with the Late Steven (Steve) Williams of One Thing Audio whence my OTA Quad 57's came, Steve was a very helpful & knowledgeable man, he gave me a small bag of 270V voltage dependent resistors we also spoke about the difference between Safety capacitors Class X & Class Y
Since capacitors in EMI filters are connected to ac power lines, these capacitors can fail due to over-voltages and transients. They are classified according to their use in the circuit. Capacitors connected line-to-line are called “X capacitors,” also called “line to neutral” capacitors. Those connected from line-to-ground are called “Y capacitors,” also referred to as “line bypass capacitors.”
X capacitors are used for differential-mode EMI filtering. Y capacitors are used for common mode EMI filtering bypassing the interference from the wires to ground. Since safety capacitors are directly connected to the mains voltage, they can be subjected to voltage transients, power surges, overvoltage conditions, and other stresses resulting in device failure. They are designed for specific failure modes. Failure of X capacitors could result in a fire. X capacitors are designed to fail shorted, which causes a fuse or circuit breaker connected to the device to open, preventing the possibility of a fire.
I made one up using a Y capacitor & VDR in a UK 13 amp plug with 3 amp fuse plugging it in to the 6 gang power strip the PC/monitor SPSU's plug into.
Again with less EMI/RFI 50 hz noise full volume no signal an improvement in sound.
I just listened to Cat Stevens Morning has broken owned since it was released in 1981 I had not played it for a while it had deepest bass I have ever heard on it.
I am now listening to Enya: Watermark LP bought for my wife by one of our daughters on release in 1988, an LP I never particularly liked, not played it for decades my choice/rational being if it sounded good then? Well it does sound good positively ethereal in places with over layered Celtic instruments of types I can only guess at since Enya (born Eithne Pádraigín Ní Bhraonáin) is a Celtic multi-instrumentalist, & is known for recording layers of her vocals and instrumentation.
Playing side two from choice, Orinoco Flow exceptional, the 2nd track evening falls haunting...
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Post by palace on Mar 30, 2024 14:05:57 GMT
This saga started when Mark Manwaring-White fitted a pair of SUT's in my Croft phono stage. I noted a couple of entries ago that I had noticed that the earth wire from Hadcock GH242 Silver plus tonearm on the turntable was wrapped around another lead, I disconnected it, as being thin would be easier to manoeuvre the moment it was disconnected from the Croft phono stage a reduction in hum, when the Croft was on, the arm on the rest so I turned volume up to full on the MC7R preamp because of a broken hum loop?
After my extensive work with my system covering all power leads & phono leads with copper foil though not the digital coaxial leads from which I removed many clip on ferrites on the sage advice of HD Music & Test. As intimated by MartinT I put the now spare ferrites on the leads of the 2 switching PSU's of my computer & it's monitor. This gave an enormous broad spectrum improvement in the sound, I also optimised/dressed the silver leads from the rear of the Hana ML & Hadcock GH242 Silver plus arm.
At the beginning of my attempts to eliminate noise from the Croft phono stage I had decided to wire the 2 earth tags from the output phono sockets to the main/central star tag earthing point using a single pair of twisted CAT 6 wires one side to each tag. This was prior to my exploits with copper foil shielding. I cut the earthing/grounding wires wires off & refitted the grounding wire from Hadcock GH242 to the Croft grounding/earthing point, less 50hz hum after removing the hum loop I had created.
It was a good move for when the arm is on the rest & full volume on the preamp the hum was further reduced, nearly on par with the total silence when the Digital side is switched in. The result on playing a record was a slight change of timbre on replay, this has also resolved in to a wider soundstage more articulate bass mid range & treble has a similar positive effect.
I read about Tisbury Audio working on an external linear PSU, it would seem that it never materialised, however I found on line a user manual for a Tisbury passive preamp in that 2018 article it recommended fitting a ferrite on the lead from the tone arm to earth point/screw on their phono stage. I tried it with the Croft, another improvement to the analogue as expected now very low 50hz hum. further the by now anticipated digital improvement was there including the sharper with even more detail TV picture & my WiFi driven PC monitor. This may be applicable to DAC's or other equipment with grounding screws.
I have tried to rationalise as to why there is this to me an unexpected "cross fertilisation" could it be that as I have read depending on the number stages Croft's can reverse polarity from input to output which my OTA Quad 57's like all Quad 57's also reverse polarity, I use Batpure super tweeters wired in opposite phase/polarity to the OTA Quad 57's could it be that I found the optimum even a symbiotic compromise. As far as I know neither my Ming da MC7R pre or Rogue Atlas Magnum power amp alter polarity.
After very recently buying a generic 2 x heavier bias weight, I was able to slightly increase the anti-skate/bias force on the Hana ML as George Hadcock told me to keep the hanging bias weight nylon monofilament parallel with/to the pickup arm rather than the oblique angle near to the end of the Hadcock pick up arm bias rod a setting I had to use with the lighter bias weight with the Hana ML, thereby reducing the 0.3-0.4g increase in the arm tracking force over the Hana recommended set 2.0g tracking weight which I also found to be the best setting.
Now the difference in tracking weight is unmeasurable by me, I postulate that there may even be a reduction in the potential instantaneous/dynamic variation in tracking weight inevitable when playing a record.
To set the bias force I used a HiFi News & Record Review test record given to me decades ago, by Len Gregory (The Cartridgeman) who developed & voiced the record. The Croft Hana ML & Hadcock GH242 Silver plus combination is now producing clean clear extremely involving mids & treble with bass on LP's that have it nigh on as deep and clear as the digital side I do not believe the Croft has a rumble filter, thankfully my Hydraulic Reference turntable does not apparently need one.
With the help of several forum members & my reading on line ideas 70 years experience a I have arrived at most musical incarnation of my system I still ask why this has all worked.
In reply to that question on this forum it was summed up for me by Mike Music who wrote "Why ? A general thought. Everything is connected to everything - in some way or another Improvements here may well change 'over there'".
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Post by palace on Apr 6, 2024 10:53:39 GMT
I am a believer in the axiom/adage "Don't fix it if it isn't broke" difficult for others to believe I suspect after pages of my ramblings. In my mind I have not totally fixed the system yet, but getting close.
I have made vast progress in removing "noise" from the system, a while ago to remove RFI/EMI from the 240v mains using Y1 capacitors one capacitor from + to earth & another - to earth in a 13 amp plug plugging it in to the 6 gang power strip that the the PC & it's monitor Switching PSU's plug into was quite effective.
A few days ago now that I am using a 10 gang power strip for the system, I added 2 more plugs wired as above Y1 capacitors distributed around the room on the system's ring main. It would seem the effects must be cumulative there has been another reduction in EMI/RFI on the analogue side & as must be the case with the digital elements.
The further reduction in noise plus the bias correction improvement with the heavier bias/anti-skate weight playing Wish You Were Here, so much more ambiance & fine detail, wider soundstage & deeper bass than I thought possible from the turntable set up on listening to Dave Brubeck greatest hits the drummers rimshots & brushed cymbals clearer & more natural Brubeck's keyboard/piano frame you can hear where the notes are being struck across the sound stage not just over there.
I am about to order some more Y1 capacitors that remove common mode interference & fail open circuit, I am reluctant to use X1 capacitors to remove differential mode interference as they fail as a dead short across + & - causing blown fuses at the very least.
Addendum :
I just put on my well played bought on release Bowie Hunky Dory vinyl LP. Treble is sharper steel guitar strings are etched I think I can hear a Dobro guitar however somehow It is richer & at the same time less congested than ever before, almost "slower" I am hearing sounds/notes I genuinely have not heard/perceived before, bass has an unexpected natural thump, there is fantastic delay on notes, together with very subtle extra nuances present in in Bowie's voice, the soundstage is extending apparently beyond the side walls so enjoyable I dashed out this entry.
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