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Post by palace on Nov 20, 2023 16:19:05 GMT
Despite treating all of the non RCA phono leads in my system with clip on ferrites in the system & replacing cat 5 cable with cat 8 shielded cable, because of the severe RFI here, on phono with the volume on full, the cartridge on the lift cradle, there was still a distinct background pop pop popping sound even more noticeable since Mark Manwaring-White converted my Croft phono stage with a pair of SUT's. The inside of the Croft has been treated with copper foil resulting in a little quieter pop pop popping.
Whilst tidying leads on Sunday I switched off the Virgin Mk4 modem which is very close to the Croft phono stage, instantly no pop pop popping. my Holmes like mind deduced the source was the Virgin Modem.
Since the modem is required for our phones, lap tops & my PC so no simple faradic cage over the modem, Today I placed a large piece of stiff card covered in the ubiquitous sticky copper foil with a wire attached grounded to the mains earth between the modem & the sound system components including the Croft phono.
Now the pop pop popping has gone from the phono there is even more detail & clarity than there was before from the Hana ML moving coil, the PPPing was present though much less audible with the previous Musicmaster moving iron cartridge to my big surprise the increase in detail & clarity is also there with the other sources most noticeable from the audio on music programs on the Virgin HD Tivo box via my DAC, even though the PPPing noise was not audible on the other sources I will simply take the win.
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Post by MikeMusic on Nov 20, 2023 16:50:15 GMT
How do you power the Virgin modem ?
Needs ferrite chokes on the PSU at least or better still with deeper pockets a Zero Zone PSU
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Post by palace on Nov 20, 2023 17:02:41 GMT
How do you power the Virgin modem ? Needs ferrite chokes on the PSU at least or better still with deeper pockets a Zero Zone PSU The PSU is of course of the switching variety it has a plethora of ferrites there are 140 I think in total on the non RCA phono leads. I have 2 or 3 other expensive hobbies, as & when I have inserted Linear PSU's where SPSU's were fitted so it can join the queue. Though I'm quite happy at the moment. |
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Post by MikeMusic on Nov 20, 2023 17:13:29 GMT
Made a useful difference for me
Around £200 from memory
Ebay has similar or the same for less
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Post by MartinT on Nov 20, 2023 17:29:11 GMT
Nice simple solution to a problem - if only all weird issues were so easily diagnosed.
Well done!
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Post by palace on Nov 21, 2023 13:41:20 GMT
Nice simple solution to a problem - if only all weird issues were so easily diagnosed. Well done! The reason there was an all source improvement, not just the phono, is now I have slept on it, I think the reason is also very simple. My much modified by Mark the Ming aka Mark Manwaring-White, Ming da MC7R preamp that runs "octal" 8 pin valves rather than "noval" 9 pin valves with Mark's blessing as the circuit was originally designed for the latter. The MC7R sit's on a shelf level with & within 10" of the Virgin Mk 4 modem the apparent source of the pop pop popping sound (Wi-Fi ?) by placing the copper foil covered card where I did a degree of serendipity was involved as I inadvertently screened the MC7R as well. |
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Post by palace on Nov 29, 2023 16:21:31 GMT
Thinking about what I have done to my system on this thread, prompted me to consider whether the vertical internals of the valves fitted to my power amplifier 2 X 6SN7 2 X 6SL7 4 x KT120 acted as aerials therefore be susceptible to picking up the severe local RFI/EMI.
I remembered when 10 years ago I bought my amplifier off of another forum included by the delightful American seller was what is/was a rather expensive optional imported from the USA a ventilated cage/cover that I have never used, until today that is, I got the box off of the top of my wardrobe though painted it is positive to a magnet suggesting ideal steel plate so I put it on the amp with a further improvement to seemingly all audio frequencies sound stage, background detail & reverb on instruments on voice both male and female.
So it occurred to me that when my friend Mark Manwaring-White returns from an overseas business trip I will explore the existence of a cover for my MC7R pre-amp with it's 2 x 6SN7 2 X 6SL7 valves & a 1957 Svetlana winged "C" 5U4G rectifier that presumably will attract RFI/EMI like the power amp ones or indeed if I need to make one...
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Post by MartinT on Nov 29, 2023 19:19:04 GMT
That's a great discovery to make. Looking forward to your report when the preamp is similarly shielded.
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Post by palace on Dec 15, 2023 14:07:19 GMT
I did not wait for Mark Manwaring-White to return from his business trip. I made a "faradic" cage actually a foil covered box to enclose my MC7R pre-amp nothing changed.
Thinking about it rationally rather than surmising/guessing the MC7R would also be affected, I realised on full volume nothing playing there was no noise on the digital inputs, CD analogue or FM radio inputs. ergo it must be the Croft still causing some noise, yesterday I completely encircled above & below the Croft transformer with copper foil faced cardboard, to screen the internal PSU wiring & wiring on 3 big capacitors .
The noise now with phono on full gain has reduced, there is a little noise not a 50Hz hum but "gain" I lack the vocabulary to be quantify exactly however that disappears on moving MC7R volume control from max at about 5 o'clock to 3 o'clock, at my preferred 12 o'clock the sound was more expansive in all areas.
Using a thin pipe cleaner with a little DeoxIT Gold, I applied it to the fuse ends & holding clips, the 3 valve's WD40 switch cleaner cleaned pins & the 2 socket saver adapters I made for the 2 6N2P EV OS valves to fit the ECC83/12AX7 sockets, plus the input/output phono sockets. There is no less "gain" noise on full volume/gain, I really hesitate to use the hackneyed phrase "as if a veil lifted" but it was just as if a very very thin veil or mist did lift, the DeoxIT Gold effect was sufficient effect that at some stage I will apply it to all of the cable connectors after getting used to the current improvement.
I'm also wondering about your Mad Scientist Graphene contact enhancer...
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Post by MartinT on Dec 15, 2023 14:14:42 GMT
I used to use Deoxit until I discovered graphene. The latter does a better job and lasts longer between treatments.
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Post by palace on Dec 17, 2023 14:41:01 GMT
I have now cleaned the Valve pins & Noval(9)-Octal (8) pin adapters in/on my much modified by the importer (Mark Manwaring-White) Ming da MC7R pre-amp using WD40 switch cleaner then sparingly some DeoxIT Gold, ditto With my Rogue Audio Atlas Magnum using 2 x 9 pin 5755's & socket saver type adapters 2 x 6SN7 with external heater PSU adapter 4 x KT120 valves
That bloody veil again since the valves/adapters were separated recently I doubt the further sound improvement is simply scratch cleaning the contact surfaces by removing & replacing them. I use mostly "f" type connectors on my coaxial cables I unscrewed & treated them plus the BNC on my CD player I use as a transport, where I have 2 "f" connecters to add on RCA phono plug ends they were separated treated as was the phono socket on the Sony DVD player & one on the Caiman SEG 50 DAC.
The improvement is palpable not quite so subtle as with the Croft phono stage, I am usually very reluctant to promote commercial products though I will recommend DeoxIT Gold. I bought a 2cc tube there is still 1.5cc left I do not know of course how long the effect will last.
Since MartinT & others who seem to know what they are about are almost evangelical about Mad Scientist Graphene contact enhancer after Christmas I will try to get some, I presume it will be best to clean/remove the DeoxIT Gold prior to applying the Graphene?
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Post by MartinT on Dec 17, 2023 17:51:08 GMT
Yes, I reserve one of the pads for cleaning off previous treatments and then apply with a different one. The beauty of graphene is that being extremely sparing is the right quantity - you barely want to darken the surface and that makes the tiny ampoule last a long time.
Deoxit works by cleaning the surfaces but the contact points remain the same. Graphene is a suspension and fills the contact area valleys with conductive material therefore giving more contact area as a result.
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Post by palace on Dec 20, 2023 14:36:56 GMT
The one off faradic cage/cardboard box covered with copper foil I made for the MC7R pre-amp with no apparent difference, I opened it up and trimmed it to about 10" (25cms) wide & 2.5' long (76cms) & laid it flat over the wiring & a Virgin switching mode PSU for the modem at the back of the TV with flaps to allow cables to connect to TV etc. I did put a 1" high heat sink on the SMPSU to ventilate it.
This time a slight improvement in background sounds detail & an expansion of the acoustic on the digital sources & on the phono the most effective result I've noticed so far is on the TV picture via the Virgin Tivo box & community digital aerial they have even more detail.
For once more is more I added some more cable shielding ie card with copper foil now TV picture best ever also my PC is connected by WIFI is quicker & picture on VDU faultless. I was careful/lucky & still have WIFI for phones & lap tops.
This is only because I was reluctant to waste the time spent on making the foil clad box laying slightly overlaying 20mm strips of copper foil, the price of that much foil about £2 so price not a factor the foil is invisible behind the TV & provides an improvement.
I wonder how many peoples systems particularly digital are unknowingly suffering RFI/EMI that is causing subtle degradation of the signal.
I would be very interested if some one else would try this, they could use thin steel or iron sheet or copper sheet/pipe or copper foil on cardboard. Since certain fuses, the placing of small packets of piezo effect Rochelle Salt crystals in appropriate places & Graphene can & apparently do (I have not used them) have undoubted positive effects, surely preventing cables from acting as aerials even screened ones from picking up WIFI/RFI/EMI to enhancewhat you have done.
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Post by palace on Dec 25, 2023 13:23:48 GMT
Following on from my efforts to prevent access of EMI/RFI a lot easier to prevent rather than remove the noise from my system. I was sorting my 100 or so valves/tubes of various types the other day & found a single Russian NOS 6N23P 6.3v from the Reflector factory, knowing that it was constructed to be a low noise valve/tube & the same pinout as the 6N1P I use as a cathode follower in my Croft Phono stage.
I replaced the 6N1P with the 6N23P after applying DeoxIT Gold thus reducing the small amount of residual noise even more, there was an increase in volume & yet again more detail in quiet passages whether voice male or female, bass guitar or double bass right across the audio spectrum. I have tried a couple of types of 6N1P as a follower like wise 6N6P, ECC82's even 6CG7'S the 6N1P with it's wound grids was the best until now, in this instance I prefer the 6N23P which being a copy of a Philips ECC88 has frame grids.
Yet another small gain...
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Post by palace on Jan 6, 2024 15:49:04 GMT
And yet another small gain... As an experiment I bought 1 meter of 10mm PET UL94 rated expandable braided/mesh cable sleeve protector, I then shortened the non-shielded power cable to the Croft phono stage to just 1 meter; I spirally wrapped the 10amp rated power cable with 20mm conductive glue backed copper foil tape having laid a length of copper insulated wire from the 13amp mains plug fused with a genuine 5 amp Bussman fuse earth pin for about 6" long the last 3 & a half inches bare wire covered by the copper foil, on to which I slid the cable sleeve protector over which I slid an inch of black heat shrink tubing at each end, after heating I think I achieved a very good neat finish. I replaced 8 of the 12 clip on ferrites on the now shielded power cable.
Having connected the now shielded cable, Croft & pre-amp set at full volume with the arm on its rest there was yet another small but noticeable reduction in EMI/RFI noise through the OTA Quad 57's.
The result was such that I am contemplating shielding more of the system cables not necessarily only power leads.
This is because now KT120's are near to unobtainable certainly in my price range, having discussed this with Mark Manwaring-White who researched this for me in China when meeting with a couple of Valve manufacturers there, it would seem Chinese KT150s it seems are a viable option, however they are 1" Taller than KT120's so the cover/cage has come off the Rogue Atlas Magnum power amp now rather than later. It will also obviate a problem with Russian KT120's having their side getter in the wrong place & overheating, I have had 3 so far, the Chinese KT150's have a top getter.
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Post by palace on Jan 12, 2024 12:16:18 GMT
By now I would have thought the law of diminishing returns would have started to apply. In my case it seems not, motivated by the successful outcome of shielding the Croft phono stage power cable. Using the method as above one by one I have shielded the power leads to the Atlas Magnum power amp & the MC7R pre-amplifier each individual step showed & all around noticeable improvement, their clip on ferrites were replaced.
I have also used a similar method to shielded my modified (pure soft 4n silver wire not cat 5/6 copper) TNT Shoestring phono leads from pre to power amplifier.
I also made sure that on the 3 pairs of silver wire co-ax cable with the centre 1mm copper core removed the outer copper braid & foil was earthed/grounded at the pre-amplifier end.
Again & still surprising to me improvement particularly in the bass. Genuinely hearing background instruments & sounds for the first time on records I have owned for 40 years or more & regularly played.
I am cogitating doing the same to a couple of 3 m plus long extension leads, however when wiring in power for lighting in a built in brick cupboard my senior technician son told me that the size of cable passing through walls has to be calculated, I don't know whether copper foiling a long length would mean those calculations would apply requiring heavier cable, Since electrical safety is paramount I will wait until my son pops in to ask him.
The power cables to the amp, pre & phono stage should be safe as they are massively over specified protected by appropriate value genuine Bussmann fuses, i.e. the 85cm power amp cable is rated at 30 amps & has a 10 amp fuse, 10amps is the safe limit shown on the extra large cable IEC plug fitted to the amp end this also applies to standard IEC kettle plugs, at the other end is the 10 amp fused 13 amp UK plug. The other leads are 13+ amp rated with 3 amp fuses, all internal fuses are as specified.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 12, 2024 12:51:48 GMT
By now I would have thought the law of diminishing returns would have started to apply. That never seems to happen. I've experienced the same surprise many times over! |
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Post by palace on Jan 12, 2024 13:09:19 GMT
By now I would have thought the law of diminishing returns would have started to apply. That never seems to happen. I've experienced the same surprise many times over! A further surprise I am now watching an improved/clearer/sharper TV picture from the Virgin Tivo box which is like the TV fed from one of those low demand long extension leads. "That never seems to happen" is beginning to resonate with me so onwards & upwards. The other extension lead takes power to the left hand OTA Quad 57. |
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Post by palace on Jan 25, 2024 15:30:53 GMT
I have been using a 6 gang mains block for 30 plus years when I bought it I replaced the 1m mains lead with plaited solid 3 core sold by a company in Wales.
I have been using three 3 way adapters to accommodate my increase in LPSU's over the years.
Last week I bought a 10 gang mains extension lead & 1m of 2.5mm rubber coated 26amp H07RN-F trailing duty cable since it is very flexible. I spirally wound it with adhesive copper foil with a length of thin insulated multi-strand wire connected to the foil & at the plug end to the earth pin on a UK made 13amp plug, over the foil some 10mm Tight Braided PET Expandable sleeving with shrink wrap tube for a neat finish. Then 5 x 13mm clip on ferrites from the old block/cable.
Since all of my system plus USB cooling fans for the valve components the TV, Virgin Tivo box & DVD player effectively runs off this block including my pair of OTA Quad 57's one via a plaited extension lead to a block that now houses 3 13amp plugs containing VDR's to counteract mains spikes.
I am listening/watching a DVD of the Mikado with John Stewart as Nanki Poo with Clive Revell as Ko Ko, William Conrad as the Mikado, Stafford Dean Poo Bah, Anne Collins as Katisha , Kate Flowers as Yum Yum, this DVD released in 1984 bought decades ago is my favourite version so far, listened to/watched very regularly.
Today the voices I'm listening to are coming from an almost ink black background, making them clearer, cleaner, especially in the choral sections where now they are a collection of individual voices not just one amorphous whole, the voices of Stewart & noticeably Clive Revell singing Willow Tit Willow more emotive & sharper, Dean Collins & Flowers seemingly more human as if in the room rather than recorded, particularly noticeable with the spoken voice including the fore word by Douglas Fairbanks Jnr, oh and the Chinese gong deeper & more resonant.
Another bonus is the picture being more defined as well.
I recently wrote about expecting the law of diminishing returns to rear it's ugly head. MartinT wrote "That never seems to happen. I've experienced the same surprise many times over!" I'm a convert to that belief, I'm trying to work out what's next to treat/that's acting as a conduit/aerial for noise.
Addendum:
I'm now onto The Little Shop of Horrors DVD again an incredible improvement in sound & picture, having owned & loved cars with V8 engines & their burbly exhaust note those & the sounds of the Harley Davidson that are on this DVD are shockingly real.
I have also listened to a few LP's as well the effect was pretty much the same, yup surprised again.
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Post by palace on Jan 26, 2024 14:52:48 GMT
I decided to try the power amplifier in the adjacent socket being a double wall socket, having read that power amps often prefer to be directly connected to the power outlet.
Having given the Rogue Atlas Magnum power amplifier it's own wall socket & re-assigning the LED lighting plug to the 10 gang mains block in the socket vacated by the Atlas Magnum plug there has been a slight shift in the sound balance, I have also noticed the following.
First : The noise essentially 50Hz hum from the speakers with the phono stage & pre-amp on full , obviously with the arm on it's rest, the sound from the speaker is now reduced even more, why I can only guess at, from cleaner mains, no common mains/earth path to the un-plugging & plugging cleaned the pins ?
Second : Listening to Floyd Wish You Were Here the decay on the first guitar notes goes on for quite some time seemingly vanishing into the distance.
Third : The separation between voices male & female in the choral parts on my G & S Mikado DVD is even greater indeed the treble in general sounds better defined even possibly slightly sweeter.
Fourth : A wider & certainly deeper sound stage that is behind & in front of the speakers. possibly more height information as well , more listening necessary must play A Walk On The Wild Side to see how far the coloured girls are projected into the room now.
Fifth : Bass notes sound cleaner/sharper at least as deep, whether orchestral drums, double bass or bass guitar & really pronounced with the metal Tabla or wooden Jori & Mridangam drums played in my selection of Indian music. I need to listen to some organ works.
I must be close to the end of my task & will have to think about the next move.
Addendum :
I have played A Walk On The Wild Side to see how far the coloured girls are projected into the room well Lou Reed from behind the speakers is now just in front of a line between the speakers the opening bass notes are superb, the double bass & fretless fender Jazz bass guitar overdub by Herbie Flowers it is written that the reason he came up with the twin bass lines was that as a session musician, he would be paid double for playing two instruments on the same track, the quality playing becomes very apparent as do the little in fill bass notes & the coloured girls Dari Lalou, Karen Friedman, and Casey Synge known as the "Thunderthighs" really come almost to the listening position ie well into the room especially on their second appearance on the track.
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