Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Jun 4, 2023 15:27:38 GMT
I mean, is the actual chip/ladder/? conversion part, in the dac, overrated? As you might know I am pretty unexperienced in this hobby since I have not actually tested so much myself...! But I consume an unhealthy amount of information and I have done some steps to clean up my digital noise, thanks to this forum. What I have noticed is that some reviewers, with high end systems, are often very impressed also by rather cheap dac´s, in their systems. Don´t get me wrong, they claim it is an degradation in sound quality(!) but I get the impression that they are surprised how good it sounds. One example is the Steve Huff Youtube channel, that I have learnt to trust(?). He has a very fine system but I am not sure what measures he has taken when It comes to cleaning up the digital noise. I know he has power conditioner, very fine cables and likely an audiophile switch, at least. When he test both the Node 2 and the EverSolo DMP-A6 he seems to be very surprised to find that they actually sound excellent in his very fine system, also using the analogue out! Again, he says that they of course sound worse than more expensive dac´s! The majority of the people who clean up the digital noise probably already have a good streamer, dac and switch that already does a decent job handling this noise internally, to some degree, I am thinking. In my case, having a simple Yamaha WXC-50 streamer/dac combo, I have a feeling that reducing the noise has a bigger effect since it doesn´t really handle the noise very good it self. At least I see very steep improvements for every sort of noise reduction I try, which I feel seems bigger than what others seems to report. Do you think this could be the case? Have you tried downgrade your dac since you cleaned up your digital noise and what did you find? I am thinking that your "old" dac should sound way better now compared to the last time you used it, if you now have less digital noise. |
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Post by MartinT on Jun 4, 2023 15:38:49 GMT
Many DACs suffer from GIGO, in other words the DAC chipset is capable of better quality than the digital feed into it.
If you're talking chipsets, I think a lot of nonsense is written about one chipset versus another. You may wish to pledge your allegiance to one brand or type versus another, I believe it's ALL in the implementation.
The current fad is R2R ladder, tomorrow it'll be something else. Implementation is king!
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Post by stellabagpuss on Jun 4, 2023 15:38:53 GMT
That's a lot of questions...
I tend to read reviews as a rough guide,and take a pinch of salt, these days l trust people's ears and views on TAS.
l think l can thank Tony for education on noise and sheilding, l believe once you have a better understanding of noise, any component will sound better.
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Post by Tim on Jun 4, 2023 16:42:40 GMT
I believe it's ALL in the implementation. 100% correct IMHO |
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Post by John on Jun 4, 2023 16:58:38 GMT
I think most of us on the forum have been through a few DACs
There are differences, but it also true a DAC performance have improved over the years at the budget end.
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Jun 4, 2023 17:04:09 GMT
I believe it's ALL in the implementation. 100% correct IMHO I don´t doubt that you are correct! But even so, do you really think that it makes a big improvement compared to a lot of other things in your system? I mean, as a newcomer to this hobby the first thing you "learn" is to upgrade your dac and that is what most people do before anything else. But a big part of that improvement (or even the majority?) could be that the new dac actually does a better job of filtering away the noise. I assume that the implementation of the Node 2 or EverSolo dac´s are nothing special, compared to many other dac´s. Still they actually seem to sound really impressive when not being exposed to the noise, from what it seems. I just took Steve Huff as an example but I hear the same from many reviewers. John Darko, who isn´t really on the same level as many of you since he does mostly mid-fi reviews, even felt that he had to do two pod casts with two streamer manufacturers since he noticed the same when testing really cheap dac´s when he had really expensive streamers in-front. The cheap dac can sound unexpectedly good, according to him, if the noise is removed. (but a better implemented dac will of-course still sound even better) |
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Post by HD Music & Test on Jun 4, 2023 18:15:44 GMT
JHWE
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Post by MartinT on Jun 4, 2023 18:39:34 GMT
I have learned a lot from three DACs in particular, two of which I used in progressive setups until I believed I had exhausted their abilities. I would be willing to bet that, with what I know now, I could get a little more performance from each those previous two.
Does that mean I would give up my X26 Pro? From my cold, dying hands. There comes a point when you need a top performing DAC and that is when you have exhausted everything you can do to provide it with a clean, noise-free feed.
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Post by julesd68 on Jun 4, 2023 18:43:56 GMT
I don´t doubt that you are correct! But even so, do you really think that it makes a big improvement compared to a lot of other things in your system? Er, yes it does. Just in stock form I have noticed significant differences between a very cheap DAC to a mid price DAC in my system. I think you need to pay attention to every component in the chain to maximise benefits and remove potential bottlenecks. Perhaps the DAC differences haven't been as startling as changing amp or speakers but then my amp and speakers are significantly more expensive - so far I have been happy with cheaper DACs. You can buy a very cheap DAC and fiddle around trying to improve it if you are so minded or spend more and buy a better implementation. Depends on your interest, skill set and spare time ... |
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Jun 4, 2023 21:19:27 GMT
What I am trying to say, using an excessive amount of words..., is that I think the reduction of noise, in Hi-Res streaming, is even more important than we realize. MartinT talks a lot about this but that is from a point of view where his equipment is probably already fairly good at isolating some of that unwanted noise. First I thought that he will hear much more improvements because he has a very resolving system. (this can still be true) But after doing some noise clean up, in my cheap setup, I am starting to feel that even people who has tried this would probably be very surprised to hear how much better my dac now sounds, compared to the same improvements in front of a much more expensive setup. I am starting to question if I would have the same level of improvement, that I now have, if I would have added a dac for ~£1000 instead (but I can´t know for sure...) That is at least the theory I have (which also seems to be backed up in various recent podcasts and reviews) I am probably an anomaly, having done this in front of entry level streamer/dac, so I thought I wanted to share my experience in-case someone found it interesting. |
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Post by ant on Jun 5, 2023 6:53:08 GMT
Is the dac overrated..
No.
Are noise reduction techniques, component isolation and support techniques, grounding techniques, power supplies, ect ect ect, the bits you are mentioning underrated?
Yes.
Simple fact is, you can spend a lot of money in a system and have it not do what you want, then spend a few quid on some feet and a couple of chopping boards under said components and get a jump in sound quality.
You can piss money away very very easily for not much return by simply box swapping without knowing what you are not happy with in the first place.
This is not specifically dacs but in general.
I couldnt really care less how my digital sounds, i havent invested in it and have no intention of doing so. I have a cyrus cd player, a topping e30 dac and a streamer that i cant even remember the name of. The only tweak to the standard setup is a linear power supply for the dac.
But, years and years spent on the rest of the system means that i can make a change and immediately know whether i am going to stick with something.
I have found over the course of many years and i am sure many people have, that money spent is not a denominator of sound quality.
A higher priced dac or a 'better' dac may have a higher performance ceiling, but if the rest of your setup cant access it, then its irrelevant.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 5, 2023 7:49:53 GMT
You can piss money away very very easily for not much return by simply box swapping without knowing what you are not happy with in the first place. Agreed. So many people do this seemingly endlessly without ever taking care of the signal path and all the optimisations required to get said path to work optimally. |
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Post by brettj on Jun 5, 2023 8:24:36 GMT
I’ve been very happy with my amp since 2011.
And speakers since 2016?
From there, for me the most critical was Dac upgrade.
A cheap dac with some mods made a huge difference to the music presentation. Changes from there have been noticeable because I have those three items sorted.
Changes now are a matter of degrees (within a modest budget).
i.e. no TAD speakers in my house.
A better DAC (similar in sound presentation), and a number of additions are now more appreciated.
Apologies if rambling. I’m waiting in A&E as I’ve broken my wrist.
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Post by HD Music & Test on Jun 5, 2023 8:24:41 GMT
Arh, yes the dealer treat mill saved so many from this fate its quite something.
Dac tech has moved on a lot, BUT so has the turnkey solution for much of the chifi production in the last 36 months pick pretty much i/v stage and its opa 1612/11 feast.
The ability to bring out the performance of the dac FULLY is a combination of signal integrity and clean mains power couple with vibration control this will affect every respectable system. Room speaker interface and acoustics play a major role as well, these re usually addressed last.
Look at the root cause and don't use sticking plasters, its basic understanding of how an audio system physically works in the listening environment.
The Topping D90 much vaulted one of the most anodyne and yawn inducing sounds this side of the grimm mu-1 (for other traits) yet place the dac is a well sorted system coupled with quality mains it does make it sound quite listenable.
Many so called star dac's that are touted as being a cut of above the rest, here sound merely different, not a setp up from the ones they are being compared to.
Look at the system the reviewer is using, he musical preference and what his daily drivers are, this will give you more of a clue than anything else.
Conversely look at the forum sale boards a few weeks after the 'influencer' forum guru has obtained a star deal on product 'x' waxes lyrically about it for a couple of weeks, then suddenly realises he 'lost' that involvement factor and hey its the star product lol, then it quietly goes up for sale.
Only you can decide if that product integrates into your system well, not the guy next door, not Joe bloggs on a forum or bulletin board but YOU.
Good housekeeping is essential something I've been banging on about for 20 years LOL
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 5, 2023 18:32:48 GMT
I’ve been very happy with my amp since 2011. And speakers since 2016? From there, for me the most critical was Dac upgrade. A cheap dac with some mods made a huge difference to the music presentation. Changes from there have been noticeable because I have those three items sorted. Changes now are a matter of degrees (within a modest budget). i.e. no TAD speakers in my house. A better DAC (similar in sound presentation), and a number of additions are now more appreciated. Apologies if rambling. I’m waiting in A&E as I’ve broken my wrist. Best of luck with that wrist ! |
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Post by MartinT on Jun 5, 2023 18:40:37 GMT
Apologies if rambling. I’m waiting in A&E as I’ve broken my wrist. Ouch, Brett! Hope they've got it all straightened out. |
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Post by Mr Whippy on Jun 7, 2023 20:59:16 GMT
Years ago Ken Ishiwata gave the various processes a cd player employed a percentage figure, with regards sound quality. I think I'm right in saying that the figure he gave for the Dac was 26%, which rather surprised me, as I thought it would be much higher.
Obviously implementation is a key issue. One dac employing ES9038 Pro devices with 40 power supplies is going to sound somewhat more capable than one with the same chip with only 10 power supplies by comparison. Obviously cost is then a factor.
Must admit, I'm curious as to how Meridian's and Roksan's first DACs would compare to something more modern.
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