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Post by assisi on Apr 3, 2023 5:56:51 GMT
The reason I have advocated and use a 4G router for music streaming, and nothing else, is keeping the noise floor down. There's a lot of crap coming down a telephone cable used for ADSL/VDSL. 4G or 5G is effectively air-gapped and provides a better sound quality experience for streaming. The connection to my house is DSL. My router exclusively for the audio network is a Ubiquiti Dream Machine Pro. It was recommended on the basis that it was ideal for my purposes. The recommendation came from a person who owns a big networking organisation and is also seriously into audio. It is what he uses for his system. I assume that the Ubiquiti does as you describe that your router does for your situation. I will find out. John |
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Post by petea on Apr 3, 2023 8:29:04 GMT
The Dream Machine is a combined firewall / security device, network controller and camera station and network switch. A useful all-in-one device, but not especially for audio and would benefit from a more specialised switch / filter / re-clocker between it and your streaming solution I think.
I use an Ubiqiti network controller / network video controller and Ubiqiti switches, cameras etc, but have a different firewall in front. Between the main network switch and my audio system is an AQVox switch. This leads to a Fidata music server, that itself has network isoation within it, and the output of this goes to an Innuos PhoenixNET re-clocker and then to the streamer.
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Post by HD Music & Test on Apr 3, 2023 9:41:20 GMT
Go Johnny go.........
Calm down I'm
Oddly enough I know one or two things about electrical noise and how ingress of it affecs sq including ethernet protocol and many other circuits.
I am not doubting that it makes a positve difference, if it didn't I wouldn't have installed a custom network switchand PSU's over thwe weekend at chaps place yes it made a positive difference and the gent is very happy.
My point is this, you shouldn't have go through this whole extra dimension of self induced noise removal process, like CD which promised the sound for ever it didn't quite cut it.
The mobile router wasn't purchased for a BW upgrade it was for two reasons; the first being able to demonstrate streaming in placed were home network points weren't availble, secondly it sounds better as to nothing else being draw from its own network just the music streamer not 10-20 other devices attatched to it.
So while being totally isolated network specifically for streaming. I knocked up an LPS for it and made a few minor changes inside.
I care very much about sq and do go to significant lengths to demonstrate it, streaming is now actually being popular and this area will only grow bigger, but the raw fact is unless you provide a quality path from your Router to your streaming device then you will not achieve your desired level of playback.
Now I am off to install a double network switch, custom power supply and new master clock for a gentlemen in the Midlands.
Though last week I did upgrade the mobile router we use to a new 5G netgear, swear it has more depth.
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Post by assisi on Apr 3, 2023 11:21:57 GMT
Go Johnny go......... Calm down I'm Please don’t insult me with the comment that you started this post with. To me it was childish and disrespectful to call me Johnny and to suggest I should calm down. I asked a simple question in response to something you said. You didn’t answer the question.
You may think that only you know everything audio wise and others don’t. Noise in many versions is not just electrical and can impact on the system SQ. The mitigation of noise to me is the prime objective of many things I do with my system. Not just digital. A lower noise floor is the audio holy grail to me. |
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Post by assisi on Apr 3, 2023 11:31:49 GMT
A useful all-in-one device, but not especially for audio and would benefit from a more specialised switch / filter / re-clocker between it and your streaming solution I think. I have several specialised switches plus a Waversa LAN-EXT Reference filter between the Ubiqiti Router and the streaming solution |
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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2023 11:40:57 GMT
A lower noise floor is the audio holy grail to me. John, have you considered an EtherREGEN? It's an excellent switch for noise reduction and allows the use of an external clock. |
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Post by assisi on Apr 3, 2023 12:23:19 GMT
A lower noise floor is the audio holy grail to me. John, have you considered an EtherREGEN? It's an excellent switch for noise reduction and allows the use of an external clock. I mentioned in the optical link thread the switches that I currently have. I have also have had 3 or 4 others that I no longer have. When I had a Paul Pang Dual I was able to compare it to an EtherREGEN. Myself and two others considered that the PP was marginally better in my system. I was not comfortable as to how hot it got.
I do consider that the noise floor reduction that I have achieved is serious without doing any thing more at the moment switch wise.
I know that many people like their EtherREGEN. I also know some who have had one and it is now in the cupboard or has been sold. A friend bought a second hand one to be able to do optical between it and a Renolabs that I sold to him. So far, the outcome is a question. For me the Renolabs was good but took up too much space. Another friend bought an EtherREGEN second hand and he thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread. It is all relative.
I understand about the contribution of external clocking. Nothing that I have at the moment can enable me to have an external clock. I am not in a hurry as it means more bloody cables and a box. Too many cables now.
John
Right now, I am very comfortable with the various switches that I have. |
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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2023 12:41:09 GMT
Ok, thanks. I've never tried a Paul Pang so I cannot compare. I do know that the EtherREGEN's performance is considerably enhanced by using an external clock. I fixed the heat problem a long time ago with a large heatsink. It only runs warm now.
Based on my experience, I'm on the wait list for an EtherREGEN Gen 2 when it's released mid-year.
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Post by HD Music & Test on Apr 3, 2023 13:07:42 GMT
Go Johnny go......... Calm down I'm Please don’t insult me with the comment that you started this post with. To me it was childish and disrespectful to call me Johnny and to suggest I should calm down. I asked a simple question in response to something you said. You didn’t answer the question.
You may think that only you know everything audio wise and others don’t. Noise in many versions is not just electrical and can impact on the system SQ. The mitigation of noise to me is the prime objective of many things I do with my system. Not just digital. A lower noise floor is the audio holy grail to me. John, I wasn't insulting you at all, I can be a bit robust with replies, you are obviously passionate about your hobby hence your initial response, the main issue with the written word is how to place thing into context, smiles only go so far. So, I will apologise for the start of that post. You are also correct, I do not know everything regarding ultimate noise removal (nobody does as everyday new facets are discovered concerning all forms of noise for all walks of life not just audio). Noise removal from all sections of audio is imho critical to obtain a quality sound and will allow you to sample that being at the record event far more enjoyably. Starting with a/c incoming components common mode, dc offset, flicker harmonics, return path & safety circuit noise. DC rails rectification noise, board layout, veer placement, component, selection ripple current noise, fpga rf generation, clock spurious noise. Plus a whole wealth of other electrical issues. Progressing through to RF contamination via three methods conducted, radiated and immunity against rf ingress. You also have vibrational consideration, both generated by the system itself, speakers, room interactions plus out ground bourn issues. Then next the room speaker issues and correct treatment of he room. Also having a listening environment, you are comfortable with and can relax in also helps with music enjoyment along with a glass or two of a tipple of your choice. A low noise is the right way to start no question, but as you feel having thew rest around it brought up to scratch will assist in the enjoyment greatly imho Human hearing range is between 118 & 128dB for a signal to noise ratio, best amplifier I have ever seen on the analyser is 133dB s/n (best measured not the best sounding!) theoretical s/n of 24 bit files have 144dB dynamic range, 32bits 172dB etc Can we realise this total performance in a real world, no, but we can gain access more information by the reduction of noise from all areas of our system 100% in agreement John
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Post by assisi on Apr 4, 2023 12:28:57 GMT
The banner above mentions a friendly community and sharing a passion for music. I hope that continues. Thanks for the reply and the acknowledgement with your first paragraph.
I am passionate about my audio and achieve considerable emotional pleasure from listening to my system. My system is rated by others as serious hiend. I always seek to find out the whats and the whys of everything that happens. That is why I ask questions. Can I learn more and therefore do something better and if so how. I don’t have the technical expertise that others have.
I have implemented many small attributes to reduce noise floor in the playback. Some that you mention. Power treatment and grounding for example. For me I have achieved considerable outcomes from the network of switches that I utilise and the cables. I am waiting for friend to come and remeasure for DSP. I am not able to do much with the room though. I am told that the room is on the good side without treatments
John
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Apr 24, 2023 14:51:17 GMT
I bought the Netgear GS105E switch for 30 euro/dollar, a couple of weeks ago. (also some cheap CAT8 ethernet cables from amazon) I believe that is basically the same model, as mentioned in this thread, but with only 5 ports instead of 8. I put it in after my Router (a cheap plasticky one I got from the internet provider) and connected it to my Yamaha WXC-50 streamer/dac/pre combo. In my setup it was an amazingly noticeable upgrade! I then also went out and bought the IFI Ipower X, as suggested by Alpha Audio (who performed the recent Switch blind tests), since I got so exited about what an added switch could bring. The sound upgrade was just as big again, if not even more! The level of improvement I got in my system is what i would suspect to get from an R2R dac, jumping from my WXC-50...! It is now much more analogue, fluid, detailed and has a more focused soundstage, even some depth in the soundstage. My conclusion is that, for streaming, it is much better to start spending ~150 euro/dollar on a good/isolating switch and a silent power supply before looking into upgrading your dac. (at least in my own system, and if you have a really bad router from a noise/jitter perspective) It seems to be very important to isolate the noise and jitter from the internet connection, also on (or maybe even more so?) a cheaper Hifi gear/setup! Just wanted to share my experience on this topic in hope that it helps someone! |
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Post by stellabagpuss on Apr 24, 2023 15:03:38 GMT
Well Tobias..You beaten me to my test. I managed to purchase 3 GS108E units for £30 and plan to do the stacking test.
Apparently they improve, when you connect one into the other.. Interesting stuff, for peanuts really.
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Apr 24, 2023 15:08:17 GMT
Yes, they talk about switch stacking here: I am planning to try an IFI Ipower X also to my cheap router, just to see what that brings to the party  . One thing to note is that the US guy, in the interview, didn´t like the Netgear switch... Not sure if they are different in US vs EU or if there where other reasons...? |
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Post by stellabagpuss on Apr 24, 2023 16:31:27 GMT
l first heard about it via a Romanian Audiophile contact,who l shared the information about the LB clock, anyway this actually came from a weekend of testing with his audio mates.
l would imagine the switch is filtering some of the noise. But if it works..thats great. l think John's Fibre to Fibre setup is superb value for money, and really drops the noise floor, for very little outlay. The question is would putting some stacked switches before you go to Fibre bring an improvement as well?
The irony is Tobias, l don't actually stream, l play from local drives via a NUC, but l find the discovery interesting, and it could possibly see me swap to streaming from a local server in the future.
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Post by stellabagpuss on Jun 11, 2023 20:24:43 GMT
So...Finally managed to play with my Netgear GS108E switches today.
My setup starts with a SKY broadband Router with bog standard psu.
That then gets to my listening room via 100ft of CAT7 into a TPlink switch that has a LPSU, from then its another run of 30ft CAT7 into another TP link switch and LNPS. That supplies my server & NUC for it's music.
So today, l swapped my first switch for a Netgear, took a listen, on the fence, not sure if l was hearing any difference
Next change, l add 2nd Netgear unit, but this time,l have to change the LNPS due to being a different voltage, l add a Zero Zone 01 ultra cap.
Now that's different, lower sub bass has more impact, and definitely smoother, more natural, a little bit more than subtle
So as you probably guessed, Up comes the 3rd Netgear, l used the same LNPS with a double power lead, as the Zero Zone has more than enough power to probably power 5 units, l simply daisy chain one unit before the unit.
Press play...Now that's a surprise... l retain the positive elements of added the 2nd unit, but are now rewarded a obvious lower noise floor, little micro details are more apparent, and sounding cleaner and just very unforced.
I was expecting to debunk this claim, but it's quite a bizzare finding.
lt's seems that,indeed my Romanian contact finding with other Audiophile friends is true.
Personally l believe the Netgear must be cleaning my LAN signal, similar to what fibre is offering. I think Tony is correct ,there are probably switches that will do this in a one box method, the downside is the cost, then discovering that said unit. l would put this down as a happy and cheap discovery, l paid £30 for 3 units, although you have factor in LNPS.
One thing, l plan to do, and it will be tomorrow, is to swap out my SKY Router PSU, and replace it with a spare ifi Power X l have kicking around.
This is all interesting as l plan to add fibre from the switches , l wonder what that will bring, hopefully lower noise floor.
l also add, l haven't add any shielding to any of the LAN cables yet.
l will give a brief update on the other bits once added the additional bits.
Okay hopefully l haven't bored you silly,just thought I would report my findings
Damien
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Post by MartinT on Jun 11, 2023 20:53:36 GMT
there are probably switches that will do this in a one box method There is, it's called the EtherREGEN and some of us have been banging on about it for years. |
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Post by stellabagpuss on Jun 11, 2023 21:12:48 GMT
there are probably switches that will do this in a one box method There is, it's called the EtherREGEN and some of us have been banging on about it for years. Can't say l have ever heard you mention it before 😂 Not that l am trying to compare or compete the EtherREGEN costs £570, and l presume a quality psu is extra ? If you can't stretch to that amount of £££, and like to play,l can't see what's not to like? |
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bencat
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Post by bencat on Jun 30, 2023 12:24:35 GMT
This makes for an interesting read and certainly echoes some of the things I have pursued and followed . I have my router powered by a 12V LPSU and then take an Ethernet cable in to an Ptical conversion box also powered by an LPSU . This then has a single feed optical cable feeding an unmanaged Netlink switch to which most of various items are Ethernet connected . I have found this to not only provide a very quiet network but also a very stable one as well . Sadly I do not have any sort of decent 4G let alone 5G so that is not something I could try . Getting a ground break between the router and your other items seems to be what makes things quieter and optical is a very good way of doing this . No I am sure this is not perfect and could be improved but it does seem to work well . Having used two DVD units in a chain I know that sometimes things can sound better than a single unit but I do think it is a little wasteful and getting a shortened chain to sound as good is sensible , just not too sure how that can be achieved .
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Post by HD Music & Test on Jun 30, 2023 12:54:29 GMT
Personally I would wait a wee bit, so rather spiffing new items will be emerging soon on the market inn the arena, it was mentioned to me recently by a third party
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