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Post by Tim on Mar 18, 2023 17:51:18 GMT
I was a Roon advocate for over 2 years, with an Intel i5 NUC Nucleus clone in a passively cooled Nucleus style case - I thought I was set and teetering on the edge of buying a lifetime subscription. But I haven't, nor have I renewed my annual subscription for a number of reasons, not just the recent price hike to $150.00 a year . . . but why? Something I was aware of but hadn't really thought about was I'm playing less music, it's normally around 20,000 songs a year (Last.fm tracks this). But 2021 was 8,000 and 2022 was under 6,000 songs. The only thing that's changed in that time period is using Roon/Tidal instead of JRiver/Tidal, so I think I've figured it out, Roon actually puts me off! It's too comprehensive, with too much choice and too much information. I thought the integration of Tidal and my music library would be great, but actually it's the opposite - information overload in short and I think I'm very much affected by the 'paradox of choice' phenomena. Since scrapping Roon I've been playing more music and enjoying my own music library more. The simplicity and speed of just scrolling through nothing but my own album cover art via JRemote I find more enjoyable, a lot of that cover art I've scanned myself too, so it's correct and a lot is signed, so it conjures up memories feeling more like 'my music' rather than something in the ether and I'm more emotionally engaged. Now, this wasn't a factor but is interesting, using the same hardware with the same NUC Nucleus clone running Volumio 3 as a UPnP renderer for JRiver, there is a noticeable difference in sound quality, especially when using my headphone system, which is more revealing. I can't explain exactly why as I didn't think there would be a noticeable difference, but Volumio as a network renderer is different. It's subjective if that 'difference' is actually better or just different, but to me its an improvement. A darker background and a more vivid sound-stage and separation of instruments – both the latter are probably due to that darker background. I've changed nothing else, exact same hardware, same Rega DAC and same FLAC music library, but my music via UPnP to the NUC running Volumio sounds better than Roon – controversial but there we are, that's what I hear. Other things that annoyed me about Roon; • Updates (a bug bear of mine) . . . constant forced updates that stop you listening to music until it's finished updating. • Over reliance on the Internet – you're basically screwed with Roon Core 2.0 now, no internet, no music, not even local files. • App initial start-up speed isn't instant like JRiver or Tidal on their own. • Too many changes that I don't need or use, Roon ARC for example. • GUI Speed – it's not what I would describe as slow, but it's not snappy anymore. The search facility I found way too slow of late as they've hobbled it and it's different in 2.0 - it's not local anymore. I find that very annoying. • Searching Tidal alone is much quicker and searching my library with JRiver is instant, those two functions via Roon are now unacceptably slow, in fairness it's not a huge difference, but I notice it. • Backup size. I have no idea what data they are processing and backing up, but the exact same 4,000 album FLAC library and settings backed up in JRiver is 6.11MB - 104 files but with Roon its 31.2GB - 31,257 files . . . . that's absolutely mental! Why it's that large I have no idea and it really slows down my backup routine. Just to add balance, Roon is a sophisticated, information rich and visually pleasing interface. It's easy to setup for a novice and intuitive. The wealth of musical information is unrivalled and if you want to run a whole home network of different devices from a central Roon Core, it's hard to beat. It integrates well with Tidal (not tried Qobuz) and for most users I'd recommend trying it, as my priorities/niggles are likely to differ. Roon Radio is pretty good too. JRiver is a much more basic audio player/server, but it allows more control over the metadata for files in your own library, which I prefer – I feel like I'm in control, rather than the other way around. I first started using JRiver in 2012 and thought I'd never go back, but it suits my needs better than Roon now. The sound quality difference however was a real surprise and a feather in the cap for Volumio and JRiver, although it's likely more to do with Volumio than JRiver. I would say if you only stream Tidal or Qobuz using Roon, have a bunch of devices around the home that work together and you don't have a large personal FLAC library, then most of my annoyances will be moot, so don't take this as a negative pop at Roon – it's my own experience alone. It is good, but it's become too unwieldy for my needs and the dependency of Roon Core 2.0 on the internet isn't a step forward IMO. But we'll see in 12 months time if my listening habits and enjoyment levels go back to my pre Roon days. Hopefully I won't have to eat my words and sign up again! I'll leave you with this comment from the Roonlabs Community Page regarding Roon 2.0, which echo my thoughts; “So… If I'm invested in Roon, with all the playlists, tags, and hearts, and my Internet goes down, I can't play my own music? How does that make sense? Even a crippled, no-metadata Roon is better than can’t play my own music. Isn't the main point of Roon playing music?” Source: |
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Post by MartinT on Mar 18, 2023 17:56:59 GMT
Interesting observations, Tim. I'm not invested in Roon so just a curious onlooker.
Will be good to hear from others using Roon.
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Post by nicholas on Mar 18, 2023 18:08:02 GMT
Good points all, Tim. My major beef with Roon was the quality of the player. Using HQPlayer integrated with Roon fixed this for me in spades.
I've had a symmetrical fiber internet connection into my home for years that has never gone down. Amazing, I know.
Didn't think I'd use Roon ARC but having access to the 4000 albums on my local server whilst tooling around in my car always seems to put a smile on my face.
Roon's integration with Qobuz was a brilliant addition that I've enjoyed immensely.
I purchased a lifetime subscription years ago (at a much lower price) and can't imagine being more pleased with that choice.
Updates are a bit of a PITA but are offset by a product that has seen continuing development and refinement over time. The player isn't the greatest but HQPlayer steps in to make my listening a first class experience.
Still, your points are well taken and should be carefully considered by anyone contemplating a Roon subscription going forward.
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Post by HD Music & Test on Mar 18, 2023 18:10:32 GMT
Forget Hq player its a fix for headphone users lol, time for a cure the source material fix, its now out there you just need to look.....................
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Post by Tim on Mar 18, 2023 18:19:52 GMT
Good points all, Tim. My major beef with Roon was the quality of the player. Using HQPlayer integrated with Roon fixed this for me in spades. I've had a symmetrical fiber internet connection into my home for years that has never gone down. Amazing, I know. Didn't think I'd use Roon ARC but having access to the 4000 albums on my local server whilst tooling around in my car always seems to put a smile on my face. Roon's integration with Qobuz was a brilliant addition that I've enjoyed immensely. I purchased a lifetime subscription years ago (at a much lower price) and can't imagine being more pleased with that choice. Updates are a bit of a PITA but are offset by a product that has seen continuing development and refinement over time. The player isn't the greatest but HQPlayer steps in to make my listening a first class experience. Still, your points are well taken and should be carefully considered by anyone contemplating a Roon subscription going forward. Yeah, it's not my intention to try and put anyone off, just to share my own very individual observations and annoyances. I only play music from a single source into a DAC in one room, so I'm not really their target audience. I also really like to have complete control over my local libraries metadata, which I'm guessing is not normal. Most people using Roon probably have no idea what metadata is anyway! |
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 18, 2023 19:40:51 GMT
I've only played with Roon when visiting a fellow enthusiast.
Neat how it integrated all sources.
It was a nice presentation as you say.
I've never felt the need for it myself.
I have a smallish vinyl collection as back up should we have an internet outage - even several days / weeks.
I could still stream the ~1gb of flacs I have, with little effort as well (not to the same quality level though).
I don't have to listen to music every day, oh wait, internet's down... no tennis / drama streaming / social media either..
Might have to read a book😱😂
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Post by Tim on Mar 18, 2023 20:06:31 GMT
I often wonder how pleasant a world without the internet might be Steve? No streaming anything, no Amazon, no social media and just reading a book whilst listening to a CD or record.
I've not had a TV since 2014 and haven't missed that at all . . . I'd miss streaming films for my projector though, but we had DVDs before Netflix, so even that's a problem with a solution and I still regularly go to the cinema.
I'll get my coat . . .
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Post by stellabagpuss on Mar 18, 2023 20:35:20 GMT
lt's actually really refreshing to hear your thoughts, and indeed l don't stream at all when listening to my Hifi.
lt's funny, l also think Jriver OS is brilliant,instance everything,on Windows OS. However, l swapped over to Volumio 3 OS and the sound quality is another level...but o man..the interface on local files is so chunky and slow.
This has now lead me to Daphile OS, operationally it's superb, but until my system is back up and running l can't comment on the sound quality.
lt's refreshing to hear the ditching of TV, l wish l could. But personally l like to play my files, checkout stuff on a phone or recommendation,and if l like it download and play locally.
l've never dived into Roon, but it sounds like information overload..Great post Tim and good to know l not alone in some of my habits.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 18, 2023 20:50:15 GMT
I often wonder how pleasant a world without the internet might be Steve? No streaming anything, no Amazon, no social media and just reading a book whilst listening to a CD or record. We found ourselves without power one day and night last year and the local masts were down, so no internet even via phone. We were both happy reading a book by candlelight and boiling a pan of water on the log fire. It was almost disappointing when the lights came back on. |
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 18, 2023 21:12:47 GMT
I often wonder how pleasant a world without the internet might be Steve? No streaming anything, no Amazon, no social media and just reading a book whilst listening to a CD or record. We found ourselves without power one day and night last year and the local masts were down, so no internet even via phone. We were both happy reading a book by candlelight and boiling a pan of water on the log fire. It was almost disappointing when the lights came back on. That inner caveman! |
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Post by Tim on Mar 19, 2023 12:34:14 GMT
lt's funny, l also think Jriver OS is brilliant,instance everything,on Windows OS. However, l swapped over to Volumio 3 OS and the sound quality is another level...but o man..the interface on local files is so chunky and slow. I agree, Volumio Free is a bit clunky and struggles with large local libraries, but that can be hardware dependant – Volumio 3 and the new Manifest UI seems very good looking at the reviews, but I haven’t tried it. I can’t fault it for sound quality though and Volumio 3 on the NUC definitely sounds better than Roon to me – no question now after a lot of late night headphone listening. But I’m only using Volumio as an audio renderer, it doesn't do anything itself, JRiver MC27 is the media server and JRemote2 is the controller. To be honest using an i5 NUC with 8GB RAM/NVMe SSD for Volumio is overkill – most people seem to happily run it on a Pi or similar. But for now it works, sounds great and I’ve saved $150 by not renewing Roon. I’ve used JRiver since 2012, version 17 I think?, so I’m very comfortable with it and it’s always been on my study PC for playing music and editing metadata. I really enjoyed Roon initially, but they keep 'improving' it and I’ve not gelled with those so called improvements, which is apparent from my listening habits. I’m not a fan of forced updates, seemed like every-time I fired it up there was a new update waiting, worse than bloody Microsoft! I like to have a choice which I get with JRiver, but I wasn’t a typical Roon user with just a Roon Core plugged directly into a DAC. It’s not really designed for that type of use and it’s becoming more of a lifestyle product than just a music player, which seems to be what their target audience want and enjoy. They have to cater for the majority after all, that’s business. I do intend to buy something like a WiiM Pro or NAD CS1 streamer though, so I can use Tidal connect and DNLA. I’m not missing Tidal yet, but I need it for discovery and can’t see that ever changing. |
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Post by stellabagpuss on Mar 19, 2023 21:30:02 GMT
lnteresting Tim, as your using the jriver to access your files over your network. So l can't 100% comment on file access time using Volumio 3.
l use my NUC to replay Volumio 3 on M.2 HD drive ,and a 8tb SSD for replay of audio files via SATA.
l could of course run your set up as a jriver server,however l find replay sound quality to be better via SATA or USB,rather than over a Network.
l gripe with Volumio 3 isn't a audio one, lt when your trying to access your files and looking for a certain track, while you are,playing audio, you can experience delays from 2 to 10 seconds, once the track appears, it will play instantly...lt's pretty frustrating, but on the Audio side,it's fantastic.
It's for this reason l will be trying out Daphile,whilst living with Volumio 3.
l ran jriver from V21 and stopped at V29, l left Jriver for a period, as Foobar 2000 sounded better until V27 then things equaled out.
lf you haven't done already, there quite a lot up can do to improve your NUC, take a,look in my Blog, it's a,journey l have been on since last year.
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Post by Tim on Mar 19, 2023 21:55:17 GMT
Sounds like Volumio 3 is still clunky on a NUC then, good to know so thanks for the info. As the old guard here will know, I'm not much of a tinkerer anymore, so if I don't need to change something I don't tend to and just listen to the music. In the last decade my systems not changed much apart from Roon coming and going and changing my speakers, as I moved overseas for a short period. I suspect once I've sorted out my Tidal connect playback, that'll be me sorted for a good period again. All I need to really do now is finish off my Technics 1210 . . . . but that's been in progress since February 2018! You can't rush these things you know  |
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Post by Tim on Mar 20, 2023 14:48:16 GMT
lnteresting Tim, as your using the jriver to access your files over your network. So l can't 100% comment on file access time using Volumio 3. This isn't exactly what I'm doing Damien, JRiver isn't accessing files over my network, it's sharing data (files) using UPnP across my network with the NUC (NUC8i5BEH) which has Volumio 3 installed on the internal SSD. This install is in a pretty much vanilla state – Volumio itself does nothing, other than act as an audio renderer for JRiver, negating any of the limitations of Volumio regrading library management. It can just do what it does best, sounding good. JRiver is installed on a stand-alone Linux Mint (Xfce Edition) based server in my study, which does nothing but act as a Media Server and is headless – that's it, just Linux Mint and JRiver on the server. That server has a low power 35W TDP CPU which is passively cooled, a fanless PSU and my FLAC library is on an internal SSD – so no moving parts. It's very basic, it's got everything it needs and nothing it doesn't - I'm an advocate of less is more for a music media server. I control the system using JRemote2. I have a second stand-alone install of JRiver on my study Windows PC, which I use for playing music locally and curating my FLAC library - ripping CDs and cover art etc. One day I'd love to be able to send data from the server across the network via fibre optic, with something like a Sonore opticalRendu, but that's for my end game system which won't happen until I move and have all my other ducks in a row. I do have one final music system ambition, which will see me out until I'm in a box, but I need to move first and see how much money I've got left to spend! My current system as mentioned hasn't changed much in ages (except for Roon); JRiver27 Server > NUC/Volumio 3 > Topping D10S (USB to Coaxial) > Rega DAC > Rega BRIO > KEF LS50 Meta Beyerdynamic A20 > Sennheiser HD650 |
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Post by stellabagpuss on Mar 20, 2023 16:26:21 GMT
lnteresting method for sure..So have you tried just using jriver on Linux on its own?
This was something l was going to do, when l ditched Windows 10, but TBH using Volumio 3 and ditching Windows 10 made such a difference, and l found it hard to obtain proper support on installing the Linux version of Jriver,so l have side stepped this for another day, Hence trying out Daphile, like Volumio 3, has it's own OS and is designed to be run headless,operationally it's not cluncky, but will have to wait on audio quality side of things.
The main thing....your enjoying it..which what's it's all about.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 20, 2023 18:29:35 GMT
Fascinating stuff, everyone. Different setups giving different results.
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Post by Tim on Mar 20, 2023 18:40:34 GMT
So have you tried just using jriver on Linux on its own? Yes and within my meagre budget limitations and up to about 2015 I tried a lot out Damien. Modified versions of Windows 7, 8 & 10. Different Linux distros, laptops, netbooks, different full sized motherboards (yup, they do make a difference), SBCs and I ran the popular Intel DN2800MT board championed by Chris Connaker at Computeraudiophile for quite sometime (that's an amazing board actually, it's still going strong as a NAS on my network). Direct JRiver music server connection to a DAC (Windows & Linux), server with a network connection to a bridge, FLAC library on a NAS, FLAC library on an externally powered USB drive, even a passive PC with an independently powered HDD/SDD for the music. Yeah I know, what a nutter! JRiver, Volumio, Roon, foobar2000. JPlay plugins, Fidelizer and the CAD scripts to rip out everything from Windows you don't need for audio. I started all that malarkey in 2011 and spent more time fecking about with computers than playing music, so I took a step back and thought out of all this, which is the best compromise for convenience, cost, reliability and sound? I wanted a balance of all four, not just forsaking everything for the best sound quality, which ultimately is expensive. A lot was very Heath Robinson, as I didn't want to spend too much on something that was ultimately an experiment that might be short lived. So this was (and still is) the best solution for me - a stand-alone Linux based server, with a network bridge to the DAC. It works and it's very reliable. I really don't like messing once I've got something how I like it anymore, switch it on, use it and leave it alone unless it breaks. That's what was really starting to annoy me with Roon, they kept changing shit I didn't want or need. Roon ROCK when I started was great as that just plugged straight into my DAC, very simple and elegant and if it had stayed the same as when I first signed up, I'd probably still be there – but I can't control Roon as I'd like too, they won't let me. Needing a permanent internet connection to play my own music with Roon 2.0 was a step too far though, especially as my primary source of music is my own FLAC library. I've also got a theory that living by myself with a decent home network and no other traffic on it helps. But that's nothing more than a personal impression. Getting back to your original point - these were my personal conclusions;
A low powered, passively cooled front end with as few moving parts and heat generation as you can achieve seemed optimal. A good power supply for the server (and bridge if you use one). Windows laptops were not a good option, despite being convenient they proved too noisy (never tried a MAC). NEVER USE WiFi and I won't even mention Bluetooth! Cat5 Ethernet is fine, couldn't personally detect any difference by going up - YMMV. Audibly an internal SSD seemed best, music files served via a NAS never proved that successful for me – plus an internal SSD is so much quicker at file management, which is important with a low powered CPU in the server as you're reducing task load on the CPU and network. Use Linux wherever you can implement it, be that on the server, the network bridge or preferably both. Windows after 7 sucks as a music transport operating system – you can get W10 to play nicely, but it's an awful lot of effort and the next Windows update will likely undo all your good work. I started to give up with Windows after 7/8, when they hobbled the users choice to easily turn off updates. It's still possible to work around it, but with Linux it's unnecessary. There is a learning curve with Linux, but it's worth the investment IMO - How to setup JRiver Media Center in Debian/Ubuntu/Linux MintBear in mind though this is my own personal 'historical' experience as I don't tinker that much anymore and an awful lot has changing with file based audio/streaming since I first started. But I'm way ahead of where I was at the beginning and I'm very happy with how my system sounds, which is good enough for me. If the day ever comes when I can afford to add fibre optics (and a Hegel and ATC monitors), then that will be the icing on the cake  |
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Post by orange55 on Mar 20, 2023 18:47:01 GMT
I use minimserver on my Melco. I originally used it on the first Synology server I had and it made a big difference on both devices to the sound quality.
I also love that you can confirm the menus and how they appear, so you don’t have to dive though lots of folders to find your music. You can also setup custom tags on your music, for example I have a favourites tag which means I get one menu option with just my favourite albums.
It’s fast and just works really well.
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Post by Tim on Mar 20, 2023 18:58:59 GMT
I'd also like to add that I'm only an enthusiastic (poor) minor league geek . . . not anywhere near the Premier League like MartinT ! So if you don't agree with anything I've said, that's all tickety boo as there's no one size fits all IMO |
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Post by MartinT on Mar 20, 2023 19:47:37 GMT
not anywhere near the Premier League like MartinT ! Hah! I trod my own path and my system is neither inexpensive nor high end. I think it outperforms its cost and is possibly one of the best optimised systems out there for hi-res streaming. Anyway, this isn't the place and I remain fascinated at the diverse solutions members have taken in order to achieve musical Nirvana. |
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