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Post by karatestu on Jul 28, 2022 20:55:53 GMT
Life is full of excess or so it seems to me. Do I have a radical point of view on this ? Maybe. I grew up in an old 16th century farmhouse with open fires in almost every room. When I was little ( late 70's) we had a paraffin lamp under the water pipes in the bathroom to stop the pipes freezing. I could regularly see my breath in the house and the steam coming off my piss. Everybody thinks farmers are stinking rich. We were asset rich but not eo much money floating about for a family of six. Things didn't change much until central heating was finally installed in 2005 and that was due to a government grant.
I live my life much the same now. Basic is the word. As long as we are happy and love each other that is all that matters (and we are/do). I see the excess of modern life and despair. I want my kids to grow up knowing money is not the only thing that can make you happy. Respect and care for other people whilst thinking about what effect your actions have on other people, animals and the planet.
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Post by Slinger on Jul 28, 2022 23:00:33 GMT
It's far too late to get all philosophical, but I think it all boils down to the difference between what you need, and what you want. If you have what you need, and you've got a little something left over, grab a bit of what you want.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 29, 2022 5:10:15 GMT
I remember paraffin heaters and the occasional coal fire. Our home was never warm. When money was very tight, after my father left, the TV and telephone were taken away. We barely had pocket money for the train fare to school. My sister and I coped because that's the way it was and we didn't know any different. Very few of my friends had divorced parents.
When I have a few luxuries in life now, there is no sense of privilege. It's because I've earned it. I have enough money to live a decent life and don't need any more.
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Post by John on Jul 29, 2022 7:16:35 GMT
I think we as a society we place more value on wealth than we do on what actual good we add to our community and those we love
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Post by brian2957 on Jul 29, 2022 8:28:59 GMT
I remember scraping the frost from the inside of the window to see what it was like outside. My father left when I was very young leaving my mother to look after me and my five young brothers, so my gran played a big part in helping to look after us and feed us. Yes, sometimes I look at my relatively 'privileged' life today and thank God for the nice comfortable home we have here today. People are definitely spoiled today compared to when I was young but that's progress for ya
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 29, 2022 8:40:59 GMT
Normality is what you are used to.
We didn't have much money when I was a kid. Just got on with it.
What I see in graphic detail right now is what a couple of small kids have, staying with us for a few days - its on a different level. Their parents and grand parent's choice. Normality to them is a vast choice of mostly naff food, way too much screaming, way too much special attention and so much waste. I've seen what they get for Christmas, a lot. I've also seen them playing with a cardboard box which can also keep them amused. Normality for them. Wonder what their kids will get ? - if climate change doesn't step in big time
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Post by MartinT on Jul 29, 2022 10:15:10 GMT
I certainly valued things that I was given, and bought surplus bags of components so that I could tinker with electronics from an early age. My first effort was to replace the puny amp in the Dansette with something more powerful. Then I started building my hi-fi system from kits and ideas. Elektor magazine was a great source back then. I pretty much got on with tinkering in my room, never a bother to my mum (who was best steered clear of most of the time) and not going out much unless I could afford the bus fare to see my friends. That was normality for me.
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Post by brian2957 on Jul 29, 2022 13:22:38 GMT
I had five brothers for friends and loadsa kids to pick from in my neighbourhood. We played football most of the time and wandered around the countryside surrounding our village. We all grew up together and remained friends for years. It was when we left school and started working that we parted ways, although many of us drank in the same pubs and clubs. I have fond memories of those times even although we still didn't have much money
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Post by rfan8312 on Jul 30, 2022 2:46:15 GMT
Yes I think so. As individuals? Not everyone. As a society? I'd say yes, though it's complicated because why wouldn't we always be striving for better/more?
Entitlement exists. I believe I've witnessed moments of entitlement by individuals and probably from myself as well.
My most morbid view of it though is that we should be happy to not exist in almost constant agony. There may have been times for humans where mayhem and bizarre cruelty and punishment by nature was nearly constant.
By dumb luck we've dodged that here. We live in a goldilocks zone in time.
We all expect health care. Understandable. But as the world's population grows it will all only become more complex to sustain.
There are 7 billion of us. When it's 20 billion what will living conditions be and how much of what we have now should we still expect?
I'd recently heard amazing stats that I can barely recall about how long it is estimated for humans to have reached a population of 100,000. And how much longer it took to reach 1 million. Then it just speeds up so fast on the timemine to a billion in the year 1830. That was only 200 years ago.
Sorry for long rant but I'd boil it down to this: may be it's ok to expect a lot, in a world where we see some individuals can reach a lot for themselves through luck and effort. But also we should probably prepare to start living less comfortably in the future.
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Post by karatestu on Jul 30, 2022 6:08:58 GMT
So we have worked hard and we're worth it. We have worked so hard that we are entitled to do our bit to kill this planet. Its OK cos we worked hard and earned it.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 30, 2022 7:19:50 GMT
I don't think people are thinking about the planet in going about their daily lives.
What I do see is enormous greed from the few who want more power and more money. If their wealth was spread it would greatly help to feed most people on Earth. However, the birth rate contributes to misery. Why is it necessary for any family to have more than two children? Why be so selfish when resources are limited?
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Post by karatestu on Jul 30, 2022 8:44:28 GMT
Last night my wife accused me of using the global warming crisis to justify my unwillingness to spend money or go anywhere.
What the hell, how dare she accuse me of such. It hadn't crossed my mind but thinking about it makes me realise it has been very convenient. I will continue to do it because nobody can really argue that consumption is good for the planet. There is no argument, this is a fact.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 30, 2022 9:01:18 GMT
Still trying to grok what the close family are doing, all intelligent punters, aware, but seemingly not aware of any small changes they can make. Some families need to have more than 2 kids as replacement to keep the population as is works out around 2.5 kids per family. That .5 is always awkward I've always been a seeker after value for money, cheapskate even. That remains. Fortunate for me I love sitting here listening to the system but if I was into going places I would cut back. My car is gone due to probably being unfixable but mostly as I barely used it. Rather than buy new there is always Freecycle, Ebay, Gumtree. Some of the stuff I see being given away on Freecyle amazes me. There is also the tip. When I took stuff down there before it appalled me what was being thrown. Dragged out 2 CD racks and brought them home
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Post by MartinT on Jul 30, 2022 9:41:59 GMT
I've always been a seeker after value for money, cheapskate even. I seek value for money, too, but I'm never a cheapskate. That's because I believe in paying for good quality. Ultimately, it usually rewards by being longer lasting.
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Post by Slinger on Jul 30, 2022 9:55:38 GMT
I don't think people are thinking about the planet in going about their daily lives. What I do see is enormous greed from the few who want more power and more money. If their wealth was spread it would greatly help to feed most people on Earth. However, the birth rate contributes to misery. Why is it necessary for any family to have more than two children? Why be so selfish when resources are limited? The poor can't afford to be " green," and the rich don't give a toss. The trouble is, in today's society, there are a lot fewer people in between those two extremes. As for your last point, that's the first step on the road to advocating state-enforced sterilisation. Note that I said " the first step on the road," not that you are advocating it yourself.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 30, 2022 10:03:00 GMT
I don't think people are thinking about the planet in going about their daily lives. What I do see is enormous greed from the few who want more power and more money. If their wealth was spread it would greatly help to feed most people on Earth. However, the birth rate contributes to misery. Why is it necessary for any family to have more than two children? Why be so selfish when resources are limited? The poor can't afford to be " green," and the rich don't give a toss. The trouble is, in today's society, there are a lot fewer people in between those two extremes. As for your last point, that's the first step on the road to advocating state-enforced sterilisation. Note that I said " the first step on the road," not that you are advocating it yourself. There are ways the poor can help themselves Informative clips would help Close internal doors Block that door draught/s with any old stuff A strip of tape along that gap around windows Embarrass the rich/er into doing things Draught proofing and insulation need to be a big industry BBC could easily run a series of how people are shown how to do it
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Post by MartinT on Jul 30, 2022 11:06:31 GMT
The BBC? Educate? They seem to have long abandoned that responsibility, although they're still happy to take the licence fee. Slinger I take your point, and I'm not advocating any kind of enforcement, but birth control is freely available and limiting the birth rate with advertising (even by guilt) is something the government should actually be doing. Plus stopping any benefits beyond those for two children.
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Post by karatestu on Jul 30, 2022 12:23:13 GMT
Isn't it the case that lowering the planet's human population is at odds with capitalism which requires continued growth ?
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Post by rfan8312 on Jul 30, 2022 13:06:51 GMT
We've discussed here once before, and I've heard it mentioned on podcasts that humans weren't meant for isolation and that we are extremely social creatures better suited for small groups like tribes.
If the population grows beyond our means to supply everyone with the luxuries we have now would that then bring humans closer together and bring us back to that intimate small group setting? Less wealth and individual independence and more working together as a group though not by choice?
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