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Post by MartinT on Sept 11, 2021 21:02:22 GMT
Here is an interesting article by Dave McNair, a professional recording engineer. He starts with this statement about digital recording... What I find interesting is the next bit... Things have changed a lot with digital reproduction and I would contend that this is simply not the case any more. However, we must acknowledge that there are many die-hard vinyl enthusiasts that swear to this day that it sounds better than any digital replay (including, it must be said, many digital recordings transferred to vinyl). Another point worth discussion: some of the very earliest 16-bit digital recordings were made on Sony PCM-F1 machines recorded to video tape. Many of them sound pretty damned good when reproduced on modern playback equipment. Which do you prefer and why? SOURCE
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Post by Mr Whippy on Sept 11, 2021 22:08:24 GMT
Regarding masters, I got excited when the opportunity to hear this popped up a couple of weeks ago. Compared to a CD upload (presumably), the bottom end is obviously more solid with greater substance. However, as the track progressed, I found my ears searching for the clarity & detail further up the range I was expecting to hear. Overall preferred the CD upload:
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Post by petea on Sept 11, 2021 22:15:15 GMT
An interesting article, Martin, thanks. I must confess that I still enjoy vinyl playback (although that is only available to me when I am in the UK) both from the sound and the ritual. Having said that, there is not a great difference between my analogue replay and my digital one (whether CD or file / streamer) in terms of sound, but I suspect that is because I have moulded the latter to match the former. Of course this may be to the detriment of being faithful to the 'original' although I have no way of knowing what that was.
What I did find interesting was his discussion of preference and the way engineers sometimes introduce distortion, colouration etc into the final mix. In some ways I think this is similar to what is done when grading video, especially for cinema where film stocks are often emulated (sometimes even grain is added) and frame rates are reduced the match the 24 fps that is familiar to at least older cinema goers. As an example, there were many complaints when the The Hobbit was first shown and I can see why. It was shot at 60 fps and was shown either at that rate or as a 48 fps resample. This gave the film very high acuity and made it look much more like video than the flickering film many in the audience were used to (it also meant that costumes, effects and matting were much harder to blend and make appear 'real'). What I'm getting at here is that for many people, the illusion that 24 fps creates a smooth representation of a moving image (which it is demonstrably not) is so hard-wired into our perception that a higher frame rate, while a much more realistic representation, looks fake. Vinyl replay 'sounds' much more like what real music should sound like than a true recording of it (and maybe that is why even a poor reproduction of that sound can seem so much better when accompanied by a video of the performance).
This 'argument' is of course biased because I, and many others on this forum, are of an age that means we were brought-up on vinyl replay and I suspect that while we can learn to appreciate the fidelity of good digital replay we are still 'programmed' by our experience to 'like' vinyl. However, what of that new generation of vinyl-adopters? Is it just the fashion, tactility etc that draws them? Or maybe, if their only prior experience was fairly poor digital replay, then vinyl will certainly sound 'better' in some way. Can someone who was brought up on high fidelity digital replay love the sound of vinyl more?
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Post by Slinger on Sept 11, 2021 22:32:06 GMT
... This 'argument' is of course biased because I, and many others on this forum, are of an age that means we were brought-up on vinyl replay and I suspect that while we can learn to appreciate the fidelity of good digital replay we are still 'programmed' by our experience to 'like' vinyl. However, what of that new generation of vinyl-adopters? Is it just the fashion, tactility etc that draws them? Or maybe, if their only prior experience was fairly poor digital replay, then vinyl will certainly sound 'better' in some way. Can someone who was brought up on high fidelity digital replay love the sound of vinyl more? What does that say abourt the currednt generation who are being brought up with lossy MP3s listened to through shoddy earphones plugged into their phones?
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Post by petea on Sept 11, 2021 22:47:09 GMT
As opposed to the generation who listened to music on tinny transistor radios and cheap cassette players (or a Dansette)? Mind, they probably get a better experience that way than by listening to music through the speakers of their car audio system!
Actually it was in part those that I was referring to as having only prior experience of poor digital replay. I think one of the revelations for those that have adopted vinyl is that they are forced to listen to an album rather then flipping from song-to-song or listening to a play-list.
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Post by MartinT on Sept 11, 2021 22:58:23 GMT
It was actually a Dansette (my family's) that had me modifying it for headphones and then listening to all manner of recordings on it, back when I was barely into double digits.
And yes, back then we listened to whole sides at a time.
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Post by Mr Whippy on Sept 12, 2021 0:13:21 GMT
Car audio. Perhaps I'm easily pleased. I have a Clarion unit from 2007 and it happily satisfies me, listening to Radio 4, Smooth Radio very, very occasionally for short spells, and Classic FM. Jimmy Hughes, from time to time, used to comment on the merits of listening on 4 wheels. Of course this was long before the thumpy thump reproduction that is so beloved by so many these days.
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Post by John on Sept 12, 2021 6:55:56 GMT
Vinyl is eaiser to get right. When I first started to really get into music I used to go to about 5 to 10 different stores every Saturday and buy 2 to 5 LPs, however I got rid of nearly all my records a few years ago as I was just not playing them anymore. I think something similar has happened to quite a few of us who use the site. I think I have gone more extreme in embracing modern technology than most here but totally get why someone still enjoys vinyl.
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Post by MartinT on Sept 12, 2021 7:01:28 GMT
I saw my LP collection get taken away in 2019. The defining moment had arrived when I realised that digital was giving me more enjoyment and I, too, wasn't playing records anymore.
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Post by Mr Whippy on Sept 12, 2021 7:17:49 GMT
On the face of it, when you think of it and the mechanics involved, it's quite amazing how vinyl does as well as it does. Same on the other end with speakers and how a paper/other cone generated can fool the ear as well as it can. But then that's the beauty of the brain: it's so adept at compensating for and filling in for what isn't there and giving us the reality we perceive. Accurate or otherwise.
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Post by Mr Whippy on Sept 12, 2021 7:36:23 GMT
In a parallel universe, it's a different story, Martin. You just can't get enough of the snap, crackle, pop, vinyl roar and smell of the black stuff. Not to mention getting to fondle Sarah McLachlan's album sleeves, when the fancy takes...
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Post by MartinT on Sept 12, 2021 8:08:28 GMT
In a parallel universe, it's a different story, Martin. You just can't get enough of the snap, crackle, pop, vinyl roar and smell of the black stuff. Not to mention getting to fondle Sarah McLachlan's album sleeves, when the fancy takes... Damn, what a nice thought to start the day! Especially Afterglow...
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 24, 2022 8:15:46 GMT
Oh the joy of vinyl! theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-musical-ramblings-feature/Reading this article where vinyl fetishism and dedication are taken to uncharted extremes, I am reminded what I'm not missing. Of course we are all different and some can find great pleasure listening to vinyl without hours of ritualistic faffing around and stress, but I wasn't one of those people - it was really a love/hate relationship. I feel that I now have a much healthier enjoyment of music as a result of moving to streaming, where I can relax into it without worrying about the next click or pop.
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Post by ant on Jan 24, 2022 10:52:48 GMT
Well thats just daft. Granted, when I get a new lp i clean it on the moth rcm, but then i actually play it. Thats the point of the bloody things. I mainly play vinyl, dont stream although i have the hardware to it does nothing for me, each to their own, and play cds. But i dont feel the need to do a masons handshake and all the other silliness just to play some music. The article may be exaggerated, it probably is to an extent, but its worrisome that its difficult to tell just how exaggerated it actually is. I wish i had 3 hours in a day to prat about with an lp.....
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Post by MartinT on Jan 24, 2022 12:13:18 GMT
Madness. I really don't miss records at all. I loved the joy of setting up a turntable well, but ultimately the sound quality is not good enough for where I am now.
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Post by wannarock2 on Jan 24, 2022 18:28:45 GMT
As DAC’s have come of age over the last several years in providing the listener with what the studio has strived to achieve, vinyl records will remain, but for me as no more than a nostalgic road marker in the progression of musical sound reproduction.
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Post by speedysteve on Jan 24, 2022 19:17:56 GMT
Outside the 'sounding better' scope;
The social aspect of easily sharing a link or just searching artist/album/track recommended, on forums or with friends and loved ones by messenger/whatsapp etc is not to be sniffed at either. Much either to find new artists you like. No need either to buy a whole album (sometimes much of which you think is dross)🙂 We evolve.
I have a few things that sound amazing on vinyl. I have many / limitless things that sound amazing on Qobuz.
Deep powerful bass is possible on digital that would see the needle out of the groove on vinyl!
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 24, 2022 20:25:35 GMT
Agreed, and the discovery of new music has been one of the biggest eye-openers for me with some help from Spotify.
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 26, 2022 9:13:33 GMT
I wonder how much of the enduring appeal of vinyl is that embedded in it is the sound of our youth, that we cling onto in some way with it. This nostalgic urge can override any shortcomings it might have as a playback medium in this day and age. I think subconsciously that might have been something I couldn't recognise at the time.
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Post by Clive on Jan 26, 2022 11:02:10 GMT
Appreciating vinyl from my point of view is a mash-up of various aspects. Certainly, the past is one factor. The enjoyment of using a turntable, handling a record and its sleeve etc. The better the TT and Digital front-end the more similar they end up sounding. I still don't have the same connection with digital front ends but that's just me - I should add that my phono stage is digital! Personally, nostalgia and tradition have their place and the older I become the more I value these aspects. That said I'm also a voracious adopter of newer tech too but I don't totally throw out the past.
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