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Post by BilliumB on Nov 25, 2020 12:17:58 GMT
Hello Folks
It would be interesting to get some pointers from you all on which bits of your kit have made the most profound differences to the enjoyment you gain from your system.
Obviously, different things have been added at different times - if you were to take a step back and start again, what would be your order of priority in investing hard won funds?
I'm interested not only in the fundamental building blocks, but also the myriad tweaks and add-ons!
Cheers. Bill
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Post by MikeMusic on Nov 25, 2020 13:40:54 GMT
If I could do our house refurb again... (nonononono) I would have a separate consumer unit for the hifi and a dedicated 6mm twin and earth
A few years ago I discovered unswitched sockets improved sound. Get as many as you need for each piece of kit or go via a good mains conditioner
New kit is expensive. 2nd user is way cheaper
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Post by MartinT on Nov 25, 2020 14:22:52 GMT
1. Choose your speakers first. They will ultimately define system sound quality. 2. Get power sorted before you start. Either a dedicated radial or have sufficient unswitched sockets installed. No power strips! 3. Plan your supports. Use decoupling principles to ensure minimal vibrations. No spikes! 4. Buy inexpensive cables to get you started but pay attention to power cables as well. 5. Experiment with speaker positioning, toe-in, decoupling etc. 6. Treat your listening room, use curtains or fabrics to reduce flutter echo, big furnishings to help with bass modes.
7. If you're on a tight budget, make your own cables, use squash balls for decoupling, granite place mats for weights etc.
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Post by Slinger on Nov 25, 2020 15:02:34 GMT
I would now start with digital, not work around to it. At the most basic level, I'd now start out with a Pi, or a mini-PC, or an ATB. I also have learned to recognise that bits are not only ones and zeros, so a digital signal chain does deserve a bit of love and affection, not to mention decent cabling.
One of the biggest eye-openers for me was discovering AudioQuest cables, which are still the best bang-per-buck cables I've used, up to a certain price point. I outfitted my entire AV system with their mid-range digital cables (Cinnamon, Chocolate, and Carbon) and my TV picture improved appreciably.
I've also been lucky/clever enough to pick up a pair of AudioQuest's old-style Diamond RCA cables which now run from DAC to amp, and a Diamond 75Ω digital cable which connects my CD player to my DAC. They are the mutt's nuts as far as I'm concerned.
As Mike highlighted, buying good used kit brings much better stuff within reach. I would never have been able to assemble such a good second system (or AV system, as far as cabling goes) as I have by buying new.
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 25, 2020 15:30:48 GMT
Speakers first, without a doubt. Unfortunately my taste in speakers errs on the expensive side, so a substantial proportion of the funds, probably around 90%, will be spent there.
Luckily, I seem very happy with relatively cheap electronics, and I'd continue in that vein.
Digital all the way, it's been my mantra for many years that vinyl gets in the way of the music. Internet streaming is literally a dream come true for me.
I used to spend loads on cables, but it's been my experience that carefully chosen (to suit my tastes) cheaper varieties are just as good.
Accessories like fancy supports and grounding boxes haven't provided me with a more musical experience, so those will be avoided.
Mains treatment gizmos like regenerators or balanced supply units are worthwhile for me.
Oh, and if at all possible a dedicated music room! .
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Post by John on Nov 25, 2020 16:27:44 GMT
1) Yet another person that would say speakers first. They have the biggest influence over sound. Getting this right in your room to suit your tastes is critical. 2) Having a well sorted digital setup that is easy to use and is well sorted. These days I want something that has a good interface and provides me with the services I want. 3) Keep the system balanced rather than single ended 4) Quality braided speaker cables they do not have to be expensive 5) I want my mains to be as clean as I can get it. Living close to a factory has shown me the value in getting this right. This includes removing ground plane noise as well as having clean mains coming into my system 6) Decent isolation where needed 7) I think it is important to have decent amplifiers. They can make everything effortless or sterile if you get it wrong
I would hear as many systems as I could before I decided what is the right path for me
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Post by MartinT on Nov 25, 2020 17:43:22 GMT
I forgot to say, and wholeheartedly agree with, starting a system with digital streaming. Forget LPs, CDs or ripping files, use your preferred streaming service as your source and optimise around it.
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Post by ChrisB on Nov 25, 2020 22:28:53 GMT
I'm another who has found choice of speaker to be the most influential part of the system. Coupled with that, I don't think there are many things you can do to a system that will make a more fundamental and decisive improvement than getting those vitally important speakers positioned properly. I've often been surprised that people can live with their speakers for years sometimes, without knowing what they are capable of because they haven't taken the necessary care to site them to their best position.
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Post by BilliumB on Nov 26, 2020 18:15:36 GMT
Very interesting folks, thank you all. If we now focus on the digital side of things, from router through to and including the DAC, what are your thoughts here?
Assuming basic mains power sorted - say one or more dedicated radials from a separate consumer unit. Is balanced mains a game changer?
Assuming analogue side from DAC output onwards sorted.
Let’s say we’re willing to spend around £3k - £5K on the digital elements (including any special Ethernet switches, clocks, reclockers, linear power supplies, grounding boxes, cables, the DAC itself etc), preferably on second hand kit if available to get best VFM.
Cheers. Bill
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Post by Slinger on Nov 26, 2020 20:58:00 GMT
I'd say that testing the quality of your mains would be the first step on that path, otherwise, you might end up throwing money at a problem you haven't actually got.
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Post by BilliumB on Nov 27, 2020 0:04:49 GMT
Do you mean in terms of balanced power, or investment in the digital chain?
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Post by MartinT on Nov 27, 2020 2:39:31 GMT
Do you mean in terms of balanced power, or investment in the digital chain? Balanced power only gets rid of DC on the mains, which you might not have. A few plug-in noise filters may be all you need.
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Post by John on Nov 27, 2020 5:12:21 GMT
Very interesting folks, thank you all. If we now focus on the digital side of things, from router through to and including the DAC, what are your thoughts here?. Cheers. Bill Have it own dedicated router with a decent power supply Decent ethernet cable with a dedicated ethernet switch A well designed network bridge ideally with a dedicated board The best cables I can afford A Reclocker The best DAC I can afford I like to hear what a ladder DAC can do Decent grounding throughout the digital chain I kind of wish this stuff did not make a difference but it does
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Post by Clive on Nov 27, 2020 12:48:46 GMT
My priorities would also be speakers first and digital only. I’d aim for two boxes of electronics...streamer with integrated DAC feeding a power amp. I’d want the ability to usb connect a CD drive for very occasional use and I would mix streaming services with locally served files giving me some control over the version of an album I could reach for.
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Post by julesd68 on Nov 27, 2020 14:52:03 GMT
I've never really been sold on the idea of a streamer / DAC combo - I like the idea of being able to upgrade them individually as and when.
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Post by Clive on Nov 27, 2020 15:06:30 GMT
I've never really been sold on the idea of a streamer / DAC combo - I like the idea of being able to upgrade them individually as and when. I understand your concern Jules and I wouldn't have considered combined streamer & dac a couple of years ago. Whether it's a pricey Lindemann or more affordable Orchard Audio I'm finding the DACs they use are very good indeed If at the price point of the Orchard the cost is not high. I think also whilst we lose the flexibility to swap eg just the DAC, there are benefits in having the whole thing in one box - the interface between streamer and DAC is 100% known and can there be simple nd fully tested vs kit which must work with lots of other configurations. I'm really sold on truely balanced DACs feeding a balanced power amp - there isn't any great reason why such a combination should sound better than RCAs/single-ended but I'm have great success currently with balanced. This is all about where I'd start from scratch....I still have record decks and valves so I've not totally gone over to the dark side. 2-box simplicity is great and can work. In my 2nd system whilst I'm running such a setup for a write up I'm doing I will revert to my ATB as a transport once the write up is done...but as a new starting point...it would be streamer + DAC for me.
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Post by BilliumB on Nov 27, 2020 15:06:42 GMT
Do you mean in terms of balanced power, or investment in the digital chain? Balanced power only gets rid of DC on the mains, which you might not have. A few plug-in noise filters may be all you need. My understanding of balanced power is, a bit like using balanced interconnects, that it provides a high level of rejection of common mode noise on the live and neutral lines of the mains supply to the balanced power system. Clearly an isolation transformer (balanced or otherwise) can have a significant impact on dc on the mains - although with my isolation transformer (an old Ben Duncan unit) I also benefit from a dc blocker, which I've been using for some years. My mains is around 250v and even with the dc blocker the isolation transformer can 'growl' and buzz when milking machines get working on adjacent farms. I have also been using an MIT Z-Powerbar mains conditioner for many years - it certainly improved the enjoyment of my system when I did some in/out tests. Do please keep adding thoughts - eg on the digital side might it be best to go 'all out' for an amazing DAC, or keep back significant funds for EtherRegens, Mutecs, temperature controlled clocks, grounding boxes and the like? Cheers. Bill
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Post by MartinT on Nov 27, 2020 19:47:58 GMT
Yes, common mode noise will be reduced. It depends on the phase of nasty SMPS noise whether it's common mode or differential. Since a BMU can be costly, I suggest you try one and see. I found the NVA BMU to be beneficial, but not as good as my P10 regenerator, as might be expected.
For the digital chain, I suggest a large proportion of your budget be spent on the DAC. This is the heart of your system. Then pay attention to good power supplies, good isolation and good local noise grounding. Streamers are cheap for even highly capable ones, especially if used with a reclocker.
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 28, 2020 8:21:55 GMT
Ideas and experiences change and evolve, but at the moment I'd disagree about spending a large wedge on a DAC.
My rather curious recent experience is that cheaper DACs can be substantially superior to more expensive ones, even from a single manufacturer!
Take my experience with Chord DACs. I've heard as far up the Chord food chain as the near-£2k Hugo 2 in my system, with several along the way. But by far my favourite is the lowest price Mojo. I'm sure the others are technically better, and they undoubtedly have better transparency and resolution, but they aren't better musically imo, quite the opposite.
Also the little Musical Fidelity V90. Bought on the recommendation of a friend for a bit over £100 it's astonishingly good, and punts many a 4 figure DAC into the weeds as far as I'm concerned. Me and my friend aren't alone here, Sam Tellig in Stereophile put it in Class A in company with DACs costing hugely more.
And the MyST R2R ladder DAC I'm currently using is at least as good as any DAC I've heard imo. About £500 new, £225 used.
As for the recent crop of technoperfect Chinese DACs, that's an easy and obvious road to go down but it didn't work out for me. Starting out with high hopes and expectations I ended up quite disenchanted. Martin's happy with his Chinese LKS, but the amount of tweaking he's done to make it musically convincing is rather mind blowing. Straight out of the box, going by what he has posted, I think he found it deficient in musically important ways. But you're a technically competent tweaker like Martin, Bill. (Unlike me). So that might be a sensible route for you as well.
So I would certainly advocate experimentation and personal experience of a range of options before making assumptions about what would be best for you.
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Post by Clive on Nov 28, 2020 10:20:44 GMT
Here’s a quick pic of the sort of streamer & power amp combo I’ve been talking about. Add a pair of good speakers to achieve a really good system without lots of add-ons boxes, cables, power supplies. Electronics similar to what’s in the pic can be bought for around £2k.
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