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Post by ajski2fly on Oct 13, 2020 10:15:41 GMT
I should be coming into some funds soon and as I am a dedicated vinyl fan I am considering getting an ultrasonic record cleaner, I want to get my collection as clean as is possible. I have read quite a lot on the topic of record cleaning and set up my own manual cleaning TT with vacuuming as part of the process, and use a 3 stage process. This works reasonably well but I have found and realise that there are some records which have been probably exposed to fire/cigarette smoke, greasy fingers and heavens know what else are very, very difficult to clean with this process. I have read a bit about ultrasonic record cleaning and it seems this is probably the way to go, I do not want to spend £1-2.5K on a "Hifi manufactured" unit which at the end of the day is most likely to be made from something similar as below but repackaged and given some good advertising guff. So firstly has or does anyone use one of these or very similar? www.amazon.co.uk/CGOLDENWALL-Ultrasonic-Adjustable-Automatic-Function/dp/B07FY3GCSR/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?ie=UTF8&aaxitk=mqWlWrtYupnRml64H.0AHg&hsa_cr_id=5647643190702&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_td_asin_0&th=1Secondly can anyone advise on cleaning fluids for use in the above? From what I have read a mixture of 10% Isopropyl Alchohol, 90% pure or distilled water, with the appropriate amount of Ilford Ittol realise agent is quite liked. Others opt for enzyme based cleaners, like L'Art du Son, it seems they are more effective at 35 degrees and a 5-10 minute record clean in the ultrasonic unit. Whichever I try I will not drip dry/air dry, but will rinse with pure water and vacuum dry, primarily to avoid leaving any form of residue behind, with either solution. Before I invest in the above, any advice or anecdotal experience will be greatly appreciated to help me decide. Thanks Adrian |
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Post by MartinT on Oct 13, 2020 10:49:03 GMT
I have no experience of an ultrasonic cleaner, but I can recommend the Clearaudio Smart Matrix vacuum cleaner that I used to have when I had a record collection.
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Post by Clive on Oct 13, 2020 11:09:01 GMT
This is big subject.... I use a Kirnuss U/S cleaner with a Loricraft to dry the records / quickly clean if need be. With the U/S I add a little alcohol to the distilled water in the bath. I use a surfactant (spray-on & brush in/spread) on the records before I run them through the U/S cleaner.
The unit you linked too should be fine, it's one of the U/S baths often used.
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Post by MikeMusic on Oct 13, 2020 12:35:51 GMT
Before that step is taken - and money is spent (!) have another think and a comparison or two with CD, streaming, playing from files
Back a few years and my vinyl set up clearly out performed CD.
Upgrades in both brought them together and then CD edged ahead
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Post by MartinT on Oct 13, 2020 18:36:17 GMT
For me too, first CD and then even more starkly streaming pulled ahead of LP sound quality.
Sorry, don't let that stop you!
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Post by ajski2fly on Oct 14, 2020 16:55:50 GMT
For me too, first CD and then even more starkly streaming pulled ahead of LP sound quality. Sorry, don't let that stop you! Well each to their own, but for me personally digital has its place and at the moment its primarily for convenience and nothing else. My brain just does not get the same sense of depth and feeling I get from vinyl with digital(of any sort). Don't ask me why, or it will turn into another one of those long and boring techy discussions about taking something analog and turning it into numbers and then trying to reconstruct it back to its original form.  |
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Post by MartinT on Oct 14, 2020 20:37:18 GMT
I won't. Simply put, you have to pay detailed attention to everything in the digital chain, with every bit as much care as you do a turntable, if you are to yield what digital can achieve. |
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Post by Clive on Oct 14, 2020 22:09:13 GMT
I’m not an all or nothing type of person so I have more than one source. Across three systems I have three streamers and two record decks. I tend to play 50s and 60s jazz on vinyl and pre-digital rock and prog. It’s rare that I’ll buy a new LP nowadays. The whole experience for me is different between vinyl and streaming...and that’s without taking SQ into account...maybe it’s like appreciating two totally different women!
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Post by MartinT on Oct 15, 2020 5:22:52 GMT
...maybe it’s like appreciating two totally different women! BTDT, good for the soul but perhaps not the blood pressure. |
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Post by ajski2fly on Oct 15, 2020 8:29:48 GMT
I won't. Simply put, you have to pay detailed attention to everything in the digital chain, with every bit as much care as you do a turntable, if you are to yield what digital can achieve. Yes I do understand that, and have spent some time trying work out what DACs are good and those not so good, similarly the CDPs as just a transport to play, also the NAS and Streaming side. I come from technical IT and I find some of the stuff completely confusing, god knows how Mr and Mrs Average understands any of it, maybe I am average too. I was an early adopter of digital in the 80’s and with files in the 90’s, I had what was considered a top flight Meridian CDP in 1988, equivalent cost today would be £6-8k, in the 90’s I used as high res digital files as possible and they were either played from a computer using and external USB DAC sound card to hifi, or on a higher quality portable Digital player. The problem I find is that some manufacturers will spout meaningless figures and measurements, and charge a fortune for it, but when you actually look under the hood it’s got about £200 of components in a pretty £100 box and then market it for £1k or more. One particular product I looked into 3 years ago was basically a RPI & plug in DAC card in a box, the manufacturer had disguised this by putting separate connecters on the rear of box and then wiring them up internally, and a LED on the front. It was up for sale for £1300, I’ll leave you to do the maths. I am not saying all manufacturers are like this, but it does raise questions, and yes I realise that it is probably not much different in the amplifier, speaker and turntable manufacturing world. At one point I had about £4K in digital gear, CDP, DAC, cables, NAS, software etc., unfortunately it still did not really do it for me. Several I spoke with said I needed to upgrade and prepare to double my spend to get what I wanted, a step too far as far as I am concerned. Getting a decent musical sound from digital really shouldn’t need to cost that much nowadays, if it does then something is wrong IMO. I sold what I had apart from the NAS. My current set up for digital set up costs about £500-600, that’s RPI/HAT, DAC, NAS, Streaming service, CDP I use a Blu-ray player, battery/power supplies and cables. It sounds easily as good as my previous set up, CD could probably better from a better transport, but I hardly ever play CDs now. So that’s my view at present, right or wrong it’s my experience. |
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Post by Clive on Oct 15, 2020 10:08:21 GMT
Going back to the original topic... I said I use a surfactant on my records before cleaning / washing them in the ultrasonic cleaner. I use Tergitol for the surfactant (branded Tergikleen), $30 buys many years of supply - you'll want to buy fresh before you exhaust the fluid. There are others such as Ilfotol (previously mentioned), there's also the Autodesk fluid and the mega-expensive Kirmuss fluid. Tergitol seems to come out best in general but they all do a good job.
In the U/S bath I use 1% pure 100% alcohol...I calculate the quality depending on the %age alcohol I happen to be using generally, it's 70% purity.
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Post by ajski2fly on Oct 15, 2020 10:14:04 GMT
Going back to the original topic... I said I use a surfactant on my records before cleaning / washing them in the ultrasonic cleaner. I use Tergitol for the surfactant (branded Tergikleen), $30 buys many years of supply - you'll want to buy fresh before you exhaust the fuluid. There are others such as Ilfotol (previously mentioned), there's also the Autodesk fluid and the mega-expensive Kirmuss fluid. Tergitol seems to come out best in general but they all do a good job. In the U/S bath I use 1% pure 100& alcohol...I calculate the quality depending on the %age alcohol I happen to be using generally, it's 70% purity. Thanks for the heads up on the Tergitol, I have also come across Triton X-100(Octoxinol 9) lab Grade SURFACTANT / DETERGENT which it seems may be used in a number of proprietary cleaning fluids. I do not fully understand you mixing quantities, would you clarify please. Thanks, Adrian |
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Post by ajski2fly on Oct 15, 2020 10:23:04 GMT
I won't. Simply put, you have to pay detailed attention to everything in the digital chain, with every bit as much care as you do a turntable, if you are to yield what digital can achieve. Yes I do understand that, and have spent some time trying work out what DACs are good and those not so good, similarly the CDPs as just a transport to play, also the NAS and Streaming side. I come from technical IT and I find some of the stuff completely confusing, god knows how Mr and Mrs Average understands any of it, maybe I am average too. I was an early adopter of digital in the 80’s and with files in the 90’s, I had what was considered a top flight Meridian CDP in 1988, equivalent cost today would be £6-8k, in the 90’s I used as high res digital files as possible and they were either played from a computer using and external USB DAC sound card to hifi, or on a higher quality portable Digital player. The problem I find is that some manufacturers will spout meaningless figures and measurements, and charge a fortune for it, but when you actually look under the hood it’s got about £200 of components in a pretty £100 box and then market it for £1k or more. One particular product I looked into 3 years ago was basically a RPI & plug in DAC card in a box, the manufacturer had disguised this by putting separate connecters on the rear of box and then wiring them up internally, and a LED on the front. It was up for sale for £1300, I’ll leave you to do the maths. I am not saying all manufacturers are like this, but it does raise questions, and yes I realise that it is probably not much different in the amplifier, speaker and turntable manufacturing world. At one point I had about £4K in digital gear, CDP, DAC, cables, NAS, software etc., unfortunately it still did not really do it for me. Several I spoke with said I needed to upgrade and prepare to double my spend to get what I wanted, a step too far as far as I am concerned. Getting a decent musical sound from digital really shouldn’t need to cost that much nowadays, if it does then something is wrong IMO. I sold what I had apart from the NAS. My current set up for digital set up costs about £500-600, that’s RPI/HAT, DAC, NAS, Streaming service, CDP I use a Blu-ray player, battery/power supplies and cables. It sounds easily as good as my previous set up, CD could probably better from a better transport, but I hardly ever play CDs now. So that’s my view at present, right or wrong it’s my experience. Hi Martin OK, after some thought you have managed get me interested in what might be achieved. I try to remain openminded on all subjects so perhaps you can point me in a better digital path than what I have taken in the past or currently. I think you mentioned a guide to good digital, would you point me to this please. Many Thanks Adrian |
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Post by Clive on Oct 15, 2020 11:04:57 GMT
Going back to the original topic... I said I use a surfactant on my records before cleaning / washing them in the ultrasonic cleaner. I use Tergitol for the surfactant (branded Tergikleen), $30 buys many years of supply - you'll want to buy fresh before you exhaust the fluid. There are others such as Ilfotol (previously mentioned), there's also the Autodesk fluid and the mega-expensive Kirmuss fluid. Tergitol seems to come out best in general but they all do a good job. In the U/S bath I use 1% pure 100& alcohol...I calculate the quality depending on the %age alcohol I happen to be using generally, it's 70% purity. Thanks for the heads up on the Tergitol, I have also come across Triton X-100(Octoxinol 9) lab Grade SURFACTANT / DETERGENT which it seems may be used in a number of proprietary cleaning fluids. I do not fully understand you mixing quantities, would you clarify please. Thanks, Adrian I had a typo or two in there. I've fixed it now. In the U/S bath I use 1% pure 100% alcohol...I calculate the quality depending on the %age alcohol I happen to be using generally, it's 70% purity. Does that help? 1% alcohol seems to be just above the minimum needed but well under the mix which might cause damage. I can't recall all the source I read this up on...I went into this quite deeply about a year ago. The quantities stuck in my memory (actually I wrote them down)...all the detailed reasoning has evaporated, rather like alcohol! |
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Post by ajski2fly on Oct 15, 2020 11:54:34 GMT
Thanks for the heads up on the Tergitol, I have also come across Triton X-100(Octoxinol 9) lab Grade SURFACTANT / DETERGENT which it seems may be used in a number of proprietary cleaning fluids. I do not fully understand you mixing quantities, would you clarify please. Thanks, Adrian I had a typo or two in there. I've fixed it now. In the U/S bath I use 1% pure 100% alcohol...I calculate the quality depending on the %age alcohol I happen to be using generally, it's 70% purity. Does that help? 1% alcohol seems to be just above the minimum needed but well under the mix which might cause damage. I can't recall all the source I read this up on...I went into this quite deeply about a year ago. The quantities stuck in my memory (actually I wrote them down)...all the detailed reasoning has evaporated, rather like alcohol! Thanks Clive, interesting you keep the Alcohol down to very low levels, I know this has long been wrangled over whether it can or cannot damage vinyl, seems there are 2 camps on this. When I get my U/S cleaner I will probably go for a small quantity of Triton X-100(Octoxinol 9) lab Grade SURFACTANT / DETERGENT, a lower Iso Alcohol content like yourself with Distilled Water, after the bath I will rinse with distilled and vacuum dry. You have have a very nice system by the way, happy listening. Adrian |
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Post by Clive on Oct 15, 2020 12:11:42 GMT
I had a typo or two in there. I've fixed it now. In the U/S bath I use 1% pure 100% alcohol...I calculate the quality depending on the %age alcohol I happen to be using generally, it's 70% purity. Does that help? 1% alcohol seems to be just above the minimum needed but well under the mix which might cause damage. I can't recall all the source I read this up on...I went into this quite deeply about a year ago. The quantities stuck in my memory (actually I wrote them down)...all the detailed reasoning has evaporated, rather like alcohol! Thanks Clive, interesting you keep the Alcohol down to very low levels, I know this has long been wrangled over whether it can or cannot damage vinyl, seems there are 2 camps on this. When I get my U/S cleaner I will probably go for a small quantity of Triton X-100(Octoxinol 9) lab Grade SURFACTANT / DETERGENT, a lower Iso Alcohol content like yourself with Distilled Water, after the bath I will rinse with distilled and vacuum dry. You have have a very nice system by the way, happy listening. Adrian Thanks Adrian, I also swap the power amp from nCore to valves when I want a different flavour. I've not compared using surfactant in the bath vs applying it directly (diluted) on the record. I ought to... |
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Post by daytona600 on Oct 15, 2020 13:19:18 GMT
link shows £500 these are commercial chinese general puropse ultrasonic baths for car parts / tattoo parlours / jewellers etc & 10off under $100 from china
jury is still out if these could cause long term hearing problems ( very loud some are 100-115db @ 1 metre ) many reports of severe hearing loss in young machine operators at chinese factories using ultrasonic cleaners
Water Temp rise can lead to record damage or warping as some machines have 5/15min cycles 40-60c water temp
You will still require a vacuum Rcm to dry the record after cleaning & bath type cleaners even with filtration will ransfer residue / oils etc
Some machines have very high power generators 100-400watt or incorrect frequency 35-125khz or transducers in the wrong place
Some are just designed to blast stuff clean for high volume production small parts
Have used a audiodesk , KL audio & degritter ultrasonic Rcm which are both ground up designed to clean records only & a Loricraft PRC6
these cost far more but safe , proven designs & record is clean + dry & ready to play in a few minutes
1st clean on the degritter with supplied fluid & 2nd clean on the PRC6 with LADS , pop into Mofi inners & records are spotless & sound great
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Post by tarzan on Oct 15, 2020 21:20:21 GMT
I should be coming into some funds soon and as I am a dedicated vinyl fan I am considering getting an ultrasonic record cleaner, I want to get my collection as clean as is possible. I have read quite a lot on the topic of record cleaning and set up my own manual cleaning TT with vacuuming as part of the process, and use a 3 stage process. This works reasonably well but I have found and realise that there are some records which have been probably exposed to fire/cigarette smoke, greasy fingers and heavens know what else are very, very difficult to clean with this process. I have read a bit about ultrasonic record cleaning and it seems this is probably the way to go, I do not want to spend £1-2.5K on a "Hifi manufactured" unit which at the end of the day is most likely to be made from something similar as below but repackaged and given some good advertising guff. So firstly has or does anyone use one of these or very similar? www.amazon.co.uk/CGOLDENWALL-Ultrasonic-Adjustable-Automatic-Function/dp/B07FY3GCSR/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?ie=UTF8&aaxitk=mqWlWrtYupnRml64H.0AHg&hsa_cr_id=5647643190702&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_td_asin_0&th=1Secondly can anyone advise on cleaning fluids for use in the above? From what I have read a mixture of 10% Isopropyl Alchohol, 90% pure or distilled water, with the appropriate amount of Ilford Ittol realise agent is quite liked. Others opt for enzyme based cleaners, like L'Art du Son, it seems they are more effective at 35 degrees and a 5-10 minute record clean in the ultrasonic unit. Whichever I try I will not drip dry/air dry, but will rinse with pure water and vacuum dry, primarily to avoid leaving any form of residue behind, with either solution. Before I invest in the above, any advice or anecdotal experience will be greatly appreciated to help me decide. Thanks Adrian HI Adrian l use a Ultrasonic like the one in the link- will cut to the chase if you want your records to be as clean and quiet as possible purchase a US cleaner. Just do it. You can experiment with solutions, cycle times and temperature.... just like a vacum RCM. I have actually saved some records that were deemed 'not worthy of play' using a US cleaner- good luck. |
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Post by ajski2fly on Oct 16, 2020 5:45:42 GMT
Thanks, I am convinced that it is the way to go🙂
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