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Post by MikeMusic on Oct 6, 2014 12:25:29 GMT
Or in my case from a few years back, crap mains and earth
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Post by John on Oct 6, 2014 12:30:07 GMT
Good mains and Earth makes a big difference
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Marco
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Post by Marco on Oct 6, 2014 12:38:26 GMT
A question for those who are constantly on the upgrade path. What do you feel your system is lacking in? Is there a specific problem that you are trying to address, or are you just looking for a semi-mythical 'better' state? Do you have a clearly defined path that you want to follow or are you just being opportunistic and trying different approaches as they occur to you, or as they present themselves? Aside from folk who genuinely enjoy the process of box-swapping (such as Jerry and others of his ilk), and those in the ‘grass is always greener’ camp (constantly striving for something ‘better’, just for the sake of it, but are essentially happy with their systems), I see the problem as essentially threefold: 1) Folk not knowing *exactly* what it is they want from their hi-fi system 2) Worse still, little idea of *how* to achieve it 3) The inability, for whatever reason (often through a lack of confidence), to trust their own ears, and so a ‘trusted guru’ is needed to advise them. This could be an audio manufacturer, hi-fi dealer, friend or forum acquaintance. When you’ve got all three of the above happening at once, is it any wonder why some people are on a never-ending upgrade spiral with their hi-fi systems? This is compounded further when, due to 3), their choices require to be ‘peer reviewed’ on forums, or given the ‘seal of approval’ by their appointed ‘guru', before they feel confident enough to make them. If it doesn’t work out (more often than not because whatever was being recommended by the assembled ‘cognoscenti’ sounded rather different in their system than had been described), dissatisfaction quickly sets in, and if that process happens often enough, so does the desire to pack it all in.
How many times have you heard folk on forums saying that they’ve ‘given up on hi-fi’ because they can’t achieve what they’re looking for? Generally, you’ll find that they’ll have been a victim of the above. Like you, Chris, I’m in the fortunate position of having pretty much reached the end of my ‘hi-fi journey’, and so these days the vast majority of my disposable income, allocated for audio-related ‘fun stuff’, is spent on music (mostly vinyl). However, if others and you here agree with the points I’ve made above, how then is that problem best solved? Marco.
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Post by AlanS on Oct 6, 2014 12:52:39 GMT
Pleased to say nothing wrong. The more so after a recent cycle of replacements and 'trying' of some ideas others enthuse about.
Plus: Shibata stylus, Improved Phono stage, off board PSU for TT, Pure glass TOSLINK cable, record cleaning machine
Nothing to indifferent: Super mains block with cable shielding the system from things it didn't seem to be troubled by - RFI etc. USB cables, RCA internconnects
Bad / worse: thankfully nothing
It now makes me smile. Thats good enough
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 13:21:31 GMT
Very simple the room, next place of residence we will have built.
Equipment is more than adequate.
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Post by John on Oct 6, 2014 13:28:19 GMT
Those TAD's need space to fully appreciate what they can do
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2014 6:02:04 GMT
Over the years I learnt they are many paths to good sounds and each will give you slightly different results. In my view its best to hear as many different approaches as you can to see what suits your own personal preferences and budget.
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Post by MartinT on Oct 7, 2014 6:05:39 GMT
Yes indeed, John. Hearing Steve's system on Saturday was highly interesting. His solution couldn't be more different from mine in every way. As we said on the day: more than one way to achieve good sound!
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Marco
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Post by Marco on Oct 7, 2014 8:50:44 GMT
So does what I wrote earlier not ring true with anyone?
Marco.
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2014 10:05:12 GMT
I do not disagree with your points Still think a good practical solution is to hear different approaches and decide for yourself I think we should do our best to avoid hi-fi guru's. From my point of view my way works for me but might not work for someone else I can listen to gear like Tony C Speedy Steve or Martin and still go back and enjoy my own but perhaps learn something new in the process
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Marco
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Post by Marco on Oct 7, 2014 10:16:50 GMT
I completely agree, John. Regardless of what experience any of us have amassed to date with hi-fi, we’re ALL still on a learning curve… You simply cannot be so arrogant as to think you know all there is to know.
Fundamentally, however, I do think that the key to achieving long-term satisfaction from your system is a) knowing what you want, b) how to achieve it, and most importantly of all, c) having the confidence to trust your own ears, without needing your choices justified or ‘vindicated’ by peer acceptance from others on forums or incomplete/flawed measurement data.
Marco.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 10:30:22 GMT
There is a problem with upgrading these days. Often something that is slightly better (especially speakers) costs a fortune compared to what you payed 10-20 years ago. Touring shows I suspect there are very few good modern speaker designs. Often we blame bad sound on the rooms but so often it is the equipment. It's pretty limited in application if it only sounded good at the designers place. Agree the effect of better amps is often underrated but much of the product has a very high price mainly justified by exotic casework. Perhaps a lot of design have become unnecessarily complicated. Often keep it simple is best (and far more cost effective).
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Post by Pinch on Oct 7, 2014 10:31:22 GMT
I'd have thought that it was precisely peoples' tendency to, as you say, 'trust their ears', that tends to provide the impetus to their upgrading; presumably, if they liked what they heard, or if they thought there wasn't room for improvement in what they heard, they wouldn't be so concerned with making changes. Would anyone of our disposition be content to stick with a certain arrangement, just on the basis of positive recommendations, if they genuinely thought that it sounded bad? Surely not.
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Marco
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Post by Marco on Oct 7, 2014 10:48:43 GMT
Sure, but some folk (and I’ve met plenty of them in real life and on forums) simply don’t have the confidence to a) trust that what their ears are telling them is real (and not simply ‘imagined’), and b) that their idea of what constitutes as ‘a good sound’ is, in fact, any good!
In terms of the last bit, I guess the significance of that depends on whether the sound your hi-fi system produces is simply designed to please you alone (and your favoured forms of coloration), or to replicate, as closely as possible, that of real voices and instruments - or perhaps both. The latter is certainly true for me, as I believe that my system achieves both musical satisfaction and realism.
Returning to my opening point, if you’re the type who finds it difficult to trust your ears and/or identify what it is that constitutes as a 'good sound’, in a strictly hi-fi sense (read as musically realistic/believable/faithful to the source music input on a system), and what that *actually is*, then you’re more likely to fall foul of the effects of peer pressure on forums and your choices requiring validation by a ‘trusted guru’ - and that is NOT a recipe for long-term system satisfaction.
Marco.
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Post by speedysteve on Oct 7, 2014 11:47:45 GMT
For me I sometimes like a change! I know that trying different compression drivers for example would give a different sound, YL or RCA field coils for example. Striving to get lower and lower bass from compression drivers is another possibility. Would it be better? May be, may be not. So it's not that something is wrong or I am dissatisfied - it's curiosity - I can part satisfy that by visiting fellow enthusiasts who have elements of interest, and sometimes as we are a close knit band, get them to bring some gear round to try. DSP X/O really opens up that kind of thing as you can handle 8ohm, 16ohm drivers and any X/O points needed on the spot - otherwise you'd be buying endless quantities of inductors and caps and have their limitations in the signal path;)
I did move to different horn profiles and different drivers for them - for the bass these can be simulated / modelled and parameters adjusted in progs like Hornresp - very useful tool and things I've simulated very much held up in actual measurements (Holmimpluse for example)...
I am still implementing a few optimal solutions for the kit I have (Linear PSU building would fall into this category) and yes, I expect to get rewards in doing it:), but I think as far as major elements of the kit are concerned it's there.
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Post by Pinch on Oct 7, 2014 12:07:03 GMT
Sure, but some folk (and I’ve met plenty of them in real life and on forums) simply don’t have the confidence to a) trust that what their ears are telling them is real (and not simply ‘imagined’) I'll take your word for it. Myself, I don't think I've met anyone who, whilst sincerely believing that something seemed to sound bad, would lack the confidence to endorse the way that things seemed, and to judge, thereby, that it sounded bad. In general, I'd have thought that any lack of confidence in one's ability to judge the real from the imagined would be pretty debilitating. In upgrading, though, I guess the judgements are more complex than that, since there will always be an element of comparison with the system pre-upgrade. So, rather than just good/bad simpliciter, it will be more a matter of judging whether there's a difference, and - if there is - judging whether it's a good or a bad one. By good or bad, I simply mean a difference that one either likes or doesn't like, and I suppose it's possible to be neutral with respect to this - that is, to determine that there is a difference, and then to spend some time on the fence as to whether or not one likes it. Still, I suspect failures of confidence are more likely to come in at the level of judging whether or not there is a difference, rather than the level of judging whether or not one likes a certain difference (after all, we tend to know what we like when we like it). But even here, I'd expect that the lack of confidence to make a judgement is very unlikely to be present in situations in which the testimony of the senses is categorical to the effect that there is a difference. That is, I wouldn't expect people to be unwilling to 'trust their ears' or, rather, their auditory experiences, where any differences are perfectly manifest. In situations where differences are not perfectly manifest, either because they're subtle or because they're non-existent, then presumably there's no categorical testimony of the senses that one would be declining to endorse, and so these wouldn't supply obvious cases in which people were refraining from trusting their ears (moreover, presumably a certain degree of caution is to be advised in such cases anyway). Still, I've no reason to suppose that such people can't and don't exist - it just strikes me as a very peculiar position, that raises all kinds of epistemological worries!
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Post by MikeMusic on Oct 7, 2014 12:19:30 GMT
There are times when you can't trust your ears (brain)
Glad to say this has been rare so far for me.
I got used to improvements from mains and mains cables, then interconnects. Then a few items threw me as they weren't improving the sound - in the same way - and I had to go back and readjust
Without realising it I have also done what ChrisB recommended and left upgrades in place for some weeks then changed back to how it was. Just not tenable The ear/brain had adjusted to the new normality
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Marco
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Post by Marco on Oct 7, 2014 12:44:37 GMT
Sure, but some folk (and I’ve met plenty of them in real life and on forums) simply don’t have the confidence to a) trust that what their ears are telling them is real (and not simply ‘imagined’) I'll take your word for it. Myself, I don't think I've met anyone who, whilst sincerely believing that something seemed to sound bad, would lack the confidence to endorse the way that things seemed, and to judge, thereby, that it sounded bad. In general, I'd have thought that any lack of confidence in one's ability to judge the real from the imagined would be pretty debilitating. In upgrading, though, I guess the judgements are more complex than that, since there will always be an element of comparison with the system pre-upgrade. So, rather than just good/bad simpliciter, it will be more a matter of judging whether there's a difference, and - if there is - judging whether it's a good or a bad one. By good or bad, I simply mean a difference that one either likes or doesn't like, and I suppose it's possible to be neutral with respect to this - that is, to determine that there is a difference, and then to spend some time on the fence as to whether or not one likes it. Still, I suspect failures of confidence are more likely to come in at the level of judging whether or not there is a difference, rather than the level of judging whether or not one likes a certain difference (after all, we tend to know what we like when we like it). But even here, I'd expect that the lack of confidence to make a judgement is very unlikely to be present in situations in which the testimony of the senses is categorical to the effect that there is a difference. That is, I wouldn't expect people to be unwilling to 'trust their ears' or, rather, their auditory experiences, where any differences are perfectly manifest. In situations where differences are not perfectly manifest, either because they're subtle or because they're non-existent, then presumably there's no categorical testimony of the senses that one would be declining to endorse, and so these wouldn't supply obvious cases in which people were refraining from trusting their ears (moreover, presumably a certain degree of caution is to be advised in such cases anyway). Still, I've no reason to suppose that such people can't and don't exist - it just strikes me as a very peculiar position, that raises all kinds of epistemological worries! “Pinch”, you make some valid points, but before I reply, what’s your proper first name? I like feeling that I’m engaging in dialogue with a real human being, and being on first name terms helps Marco.
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2014 17:42:38 GMT
Some interesting reading. I want to address some point and perhaps raise some more questions 1) Knowing what you want is not always easy in terms of sound for me its a journey without an end as there is no perfect sound, just the sound I am happy with. In some ways what I like has slowly redefined, so in my case a ongoing process of discovery. That does not mean I do not know what I want and not want but it has the opportunity to change over time. I kind of envy those that are not like this. But once I hear something I perceive as a improvement it is hard for me to go back I am just not built that way. I do believe it can help system building if you can define what you looking. In my case lots of resolution, speed, dynamics, scale and micro detail without feeling fatigued. 2) How to achieve it. Gosh that so varied. We all got such different systems and I tend to think each of our systems is based on our musical preferences and what enjoy in terms of sound. Perhaps better to think in terms of common truths. So for source you want to keep the signal clean and retaining as much much information as possible. 3) Trust your ears Like Pinch I am not sure how you cannot trust your own ears unless you are a pure objectivist and rather avoid a circular debate around that one On TAS we do not mind if people do not share their names
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2014 17:43:06 GMT
Double post
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