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Post by danielquinn on Aug 11, 2014 13:13:05 GMT
I get the impression you are just disagreeing with me for the sake of it , rather than any particular point or purpose . Succinctly: I get the impression you are just raising these points for the sake of it.
I have a Stillpoints weight. It was expensive. It makes a relatively small but positive improvement to sound quality. I bought it and therefore accepted the value proposition.
I never raise points for the sake of it , Never . i have no objection to your purchase as i have said , however i read reviews that bestow upon this product magical properties and as i said i am at a loss to understand what it can do that a £20 lump of metal cannot ? So as far as i can tell a sensible review of stillpoints would say , on my system it made a small but worthwhile improvment , it is ridicoulsy expensive but i dont care i can afford it and it looks nice , however i dont suppose it deos anything that a £20 lump of metal would do . Now if this was the narrative surronding this and similar product , then I would indeed be posting without a purpose or a point . |
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Post by Chris on Aug 11, 2014 13:17:08 GMT
Get money out of guys like us?
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Post by MartinT on Aug 11, 2014 13:18:33 GMT
It uses five support pads on the underside to apply coupled weight to the record via internal points. Manufacturing cannot be straightforward and I would guess it's pretty much manual assembly. Their sales must be low volume. I'm not justifying the price, but they are not comparable with a £20 lump of metal. I do have a £30 lump of metal called a Bruil weight and the Stillpoints sounds a little better.
No magical properties and you will not hear me give exaggerated claims as I dislike 'night and day' claims myself.
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Post by danielquinn on Aug 11, 2014 13:28:26 GMT
Then that begs the question as to how and we have come full circle , because you are attributing SQ effects to a expensive product without any efficacy and it is always the most expensive product that comes out on top in "reviewer land"
you made a post that you disliked absolute objectivity and subjectivity , but the still points record weight is a product which relies wholly on subjectivity for its efficacy .
And what the bloody hell is coupled weight ? Does that mean it distributes it weight on the record via several points which are hard not soft ?
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Post by ChrisB on Aug 11, 2014 13:33:41 GMT
........by any definition of efficacy , is something does the same thing as a cheaper alternative it is less effective . Well here are two definitions that contradict that view. Oxford: Definition of efficacy in English: efficacy ef¦fi|cacy Pronunciation: /ˈɛfɪkəsi / NOUN [MASS NOUN] FORMAL The ability to produce a desired or intended result: there is little information on the efficacy of this treatment Merriam Webster:ef·fi·ca·cy noun \ˈe-fi-kə-sē\ : the power to produce a desired result or effect plural ef·fi·ca·cies Full Definition of EFFICACY : the power to produce an effect I wouldn't buy a Stillpoints weight either, as I don't happen to think it represents anything approaching value for money in terms of it's content, and I doubt that I could get a justifiable change in sound quality from the investment, but I respect Martin's right to spend his money in whichever way he chooses. Also, I don't like the notion that something for sale is a 'rip-off'. That term implies illegality and cheating in my mind, and that is not the case at all - the price is asked and if a potential customer want to pay it, then that's their concern and no-one else's. |
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Post by danielquinn on Aug 11, 2014 13:43:59 GMT
If it is not every persons desire in a capitalist society to produce the desired or intended result for the cheapest possible price available to them then I will eat my PT at scalfold . I repeat nobody will pay £500 for something that does absolutely the same thing for £20 . They may pay more cause it looks better , performs better , last longer or a plethora of other personal reasons , but nobody will pay more for the same .
You comment on still points price is ridiculous . Ring them up and ask them how much its costs to manufacture , also ask them to explain its efficacy over and over a piece of the same metal weighing the same and i bet you they wont answer you .
Obfuscation and lack of information is a constituent part of rip off .
Additionally , rip off does not imply cheating or illegality and in this regard i respectfully refer to wikipedia which says "A ripoff (or rip-off) is a bad financial transaction. Usually it refers to an incident in which a person is overcharged for something, or receives goods or services ..."
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Post by MartinT on Aug 11, 2014 13:52:34 GMT
There is no such thing as a rip-off unless you are incapable of understanding the transaction or the product is deliberately substandard.
If I buy an item, I accept the price for the product or service gained (the value proposition). I am not ripped off.
If I don't buy the item there is no transaction: I am not ripped off.
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Post by Dave on Aug 11, 2014 13:54:40 GMT
Surely it is up to the individual to determine the efficacy an item? Presumably there is nothing to stop a cancer patient from stumping up their own cash if they think it is efficacious to do so. I'm not saying its right just that the option is there if they can afford to do so. Frankly it is a matter of perceived value and everyone is different in this regard. You are entitled to your opinions of course DQ but you do so love to browbeat others with them, a legacy of your profession perhaps... but that way lies extreme solipsism and if this is what you want then we should all give up trying to communicate and looking for shared meaning . sort of leaves the forum without a raison detre though . I do not object to anybody spending their money on expensive foo [ i object to an economic system which makes foo viable but that is a different argument ] However i do object to somebody telling me that the foo is better than the cheap equivalent without explanation or without being challenged . And is is not browbeating , the logical conclusion of your post is that we all accept what we say at face value , well sorry that way lies chaos and confusion . You need to be consistent dave , I can point you to your own posts in which you have adopted a cynical , questioning and incredulous attitude . Again I am not at all sure of the point you are trying to make . Actually I thought you of all people would get it DQ. If you've been following my posts here and elsewhere it's pretty obvious that I enjoy playing the devils advocate card on subjects which interest me 
As for this one I am fairly nonchalant regarding all this simply because I can't afford much of it so I do my best to hunt out viable and cheaper alternatives, such as employing cork demijohn bungs under my old valve amp to isolate it, which worked a treat and cost £1.49 for a pack of ten 
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Post by ChrisB on Aug 11, 2014 13:56:15 GMT
Sorry, you've lost me.
You say:
In reply to me saying:
I think we're agreeing there. I don't call it a rip-off though. And with regard to your defining the term 'rip-off', I said I don't like the term because it implies illegality and cheating in my mind
.
Apart from that, everything's just peachy!
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Post by danielquinn on Aug 11, 2014 14:03:22 GMT
There is no such thing as a rip-off unless you are incapable of understanding the transaction or the product is deliberately substandard. If I buy an item, I accept the price for the product or service gained (the value proposition). I am not ripped off. If I don't buy the item there is no transaction: I am not ripped off. Not true - ripp off is a subjective concept . It is perfectly possible for a group of people to agree a product is a ripp off even if they dont buy it and bestow upon that the product the term ripp off . it is legitimate for me to say -dont buy it as in my opinion it is a ripp off , the application of the concept is not for the exclusive use of the purchaser . Also you dont know if you have been ripped off as you are not in possession of full knowledge . If this product cost £5 to make . i suspect you would be a little annoyed .
We do not live in a world in which the arbiter of a products value is the purchasers opinion , otherwise drugs , firearms and weapons would be legal . It is legitimate to construct a "narrative" around a product other than what a person will pay for it . |
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Post by danielquinn on Aug 11, 2014 14:05:20 GMT
Sorry, you've lost me. You say: In reply to me saying: I think we're agreeing there. I don't call it a rip-off though. And with regard to your defining the term 'rip-off', I said I don't like the term because it implies illegality and cheating in my mind
. Apart from that, everything's just peachy! Sorry chris but language is the one thing we have that stops us living in trees and beating our chests , you cannot bestow your own meaning on concepts . |
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Post by MartinT on Aug 11, 2014 15:01:59 GMT
Not true - ripp off is a subjective concept . It is perfectly possible for a group of people to agree a product is a ripp off even if they dont buy it and bestow upon that the product the term ripp off . In my opinion, and respectfully, cobblers!
No-one but the purchaser can know what their perception of value is if they proceed with the transaction. Of course it's subjective, but no-one else can judge it for them.
As for the non-purchaser's opinion? Completely and utterly immaterial.
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Post by danielquinn on Aug 11, 2014 15:07:10 GMT
A state of affairs that exists cannot be cobblers if it exists . You may not like it , agree with it but you cannot deny its existence .
Sorry but it is to bend the meaning of ripp off illegitimately to say only a purchaser can make this decision . I dont buy fresh herbs at Marks and spencer cause they are a rip off . You may not agree with me , but it is to bastardise the language to say it is illegitimate of me to say there are a rip off .
You are conflating two arguments .
my ability to call it a rip off vis a vis the common sense meaning of that term .
And the legitimacy of me calling the product a rip off without having tried it .
With respect , if you wish the concept of rip off to be the sole prerogative of those that have tried the product then that is absurd .
Whether my opinion upon it is immaterial , it isn't for me or you to decide . it is for others . I merely wish to add to the knowledge narrative surrounding this and other products .
If i was a potential purchaser , i am sorry but i would consider my opinion to be as valid as yours . Indeed whenever i consider buying anything i always search for the negative first .
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Post by MartinT on Aug 11, 2014 15:11:33 GMT
I argue as I see it. Just because people say something is a rip-off do you think I give a gnat's arse for their opinion if they didn't actually buy it themselves?
Lots of people buy Marks & Spencer herbs. Are you saying they've all been ripped off? Because of your opinion?
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Post by danielquinn on Aug 11, 2014 15:20:11 GMT
it is not my opinion , i did not make up the concept of ripp off, it is as independent meaning Thus M&S herbs are grown in the ground , are the same as you get elsewhere and are inexplicably expensive .
a transaction which as these criteria is a ripp off by the definition of the term .
I am constantly ripped off , i chooose to do it , but it doesnt mean i anint being ripped off , i try to keep it to a minimum though.
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Post by danielquinn on Aug 11, 2014 15:24:29 GMT
And once again , you miss the point , I dont care what you think , it is not my aim to change your opinion and as stated i respect your right to buy this product , it is my aim to try and get to some kind of truth behind the bullshit , obfuscation and exaggeration .
Mainly for me , but also in the hope this will assist others . I only want to see informed fully knowledgeable consumers .
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Post by MartinT on Aug 11, 2014 15:32:39 GMT
I dont care what you think That's fine. Since you have already admitted that rip-off is subjective, I don't much care what you think either! |
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Post by ChrisB on Aug 11, 2014 17:08:39 GMT
Anyway Danny, not wishing every single thread to be turned into a discussion about your, or Jammy's, idea of value for money (it was nice of you to answer Martin's question on his behalf, by the way) what are your thoughts on equipment supports, I wonder?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 17:26:42 GMT
I do sometimes wonder............. ...........oh about lots of things. Regarding the fiddlings that most of us go through at some stage in our audio journey, I am wonder if its age related. When I was younger I tried all the usual stuff. Bike tyres, squash balls, oak cones etc etc. Although I found most unconvincing, it didn't stop me having a try. However, after 50 years of interest in hi-fi and the last 25 with pretty much the same system, I have thrown all the widgets away. I have a rack - which will go as soon as the lounge is ready. All the equipment is plonked straight on the glass shelves (almost all - the TT is on an additional shelf with rubber between them as its rather close to one of the Quads) Once we are upstairs, it all going directly onto inbuilt wooden housings which will include all the CDs, records and some books. The speakers will be 6 or 7 metres away. So, it was fun at the time but now I just want to sit and listen to the music. PS I wonder why my gold stars are pink?  |
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Post by Paul Barker on Aug 11, 2014 17:38:01 GMT
you will not hear me give exaggerated claims as I dislike 'night and day' claims myself. The problem is what are you supposed to say when something is night and day which many things are. If things aren't night and day they aren't worth much to me. So what is night and day in my life? FM Radio to DAB Vinyl to Spotify FREE version. Slatedeck to wooden plinth. Western Electric Oxide coated 211 (well actually the STC version which is a 4211, same thing different number) to VT4C Thoriated Tungsten VT4C to Chinese 211 of cheap manufacture. Can't speak of PSVANE as haven't tried them. those are all massive differences as clear as night is different to day. Minutia differences I wouldn't spend more than £20 on. Above difference I have spent fortunes on. All the way along this line I have found the clearast improvement in sound comes from a different valve. But that difference will cost you a small fortune. If you stick to your cheap valves you can prat around with the things that make little difference to your hearts content and spend a lot less money. |
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