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Post by Slinger on Jan 9, 2019 17:02:32 GMT
Hi Paul ...however happy to demonstrate cables which look less than ideal on a quality scope yet produce more desirable SQ than ones which look better. So, to paraphrase John Bercow, the Speaker of the House. The ears have it, the ears have it, reclock. Probably closer to the mark though: It's a funny old game - Jimmy Greaves.I suppose my own position would always be letting my ears be the arbiters, but as I've said, many ways, and many times before, I'm far more interested in the music itself than how it reaches me. That's (obviously) not to say that one shouldn't try to maximise one's listening pleasure, but personally, I'd rather listen to music and discuss music all day long rather be comparing what may be micro-differences in the delivery system. Hell, my system(s) may not even be "good enough" to register the differences some people hear on their own systems, and that's without even mentioning system synergy, which I've now mentioned. I can see why people steer clear of cable threads though.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2019 17:23:53 GMT
Paul. Even in modest system a good digital transmission signal transfer device can be more than audiable imho
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Post by MartinT on Jan 9, 2019 17:59:30 GMT
I'm far more interested in the music itself than how it reaches me. I think that's true of most music lovers, I really do. However, I'm also convinced that the higher the fidelity, the closer you are brought to the music and the more insight you gain. |
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Post by Slinger on Jan 9, 2019 18:42:06 GMT
Paul. Even in modest system a good digital transmission signal transfer device can be more than audiable imho True. I'm not advocating that we all go back to transistor radios, or boom-boxes, but there seems to come a point where it stops being about music and starts being more about chasing the next "upgrade." One day somebody changes a component in their system, and suddenly the difference is "night and day" and then a couple of months down the line they change something else and the difference is "stupendous" and they're hearing things they never heard before on albums they've been listening to for donkey's years. Then the same thing happens again, and again. and again... How shit was their system to start with if (a number plucked from the air) four "massive" upgrades make it sound "so much" better? Well, their system wasn't shit, was it? They were perfectly happy with it. In fact, they probably thought it sounded like the mutt's nuts. I'm not saying the upgrades didn't make their system sound better to them, just that at one time they were happy and then, for a while they were happier still until their level of happiness found its default state again, so they needed to feel happier again, and so on, ad infinitum. It's almost like a drug. Not that it makes you a drug dealer, of course.  I've got my Pi/Volumio connected to an SMSL M8 DAC with a Belden 1694a based 0.5m cable, which plays to my Primare i21 via Klotz AC110 based cables. Not the highest of high-end, but I'd probably say "decent" at least. Could I improve it? I dare say I could. Can I afford to? No, I can't. I've bought my pre-owned gear carefully and specced what I think are about the best bang-for-bucks cables I can afford. The whole shebang is going into a pair of Epos ES11s via Van Damme 4mm HiFi Series cables. About the only immediate "upgrade" I may try is to have a listen to how it sounds with the Monitor Audio Silver 2 speakers currently residing in my main system, which is all NVA, apart from the sources, obviously. I've joked that if a Primare DAC came up for under £350.00 I'd buy it, but it helps to know that that's never going to happen. It all comes down to the same thing in the end though, my hobby is music, not hi-fi. If I had shed-loads of disposable income would I have a more expensive system? Yes, undoubtedly, but the point is it would likely be a one-off, put together as carefully as the system I have now, and not a vehicle for endless upgrades, just to play music. I probably haven't made a great deal of sense; I found myself rambling, as I often do. I should probably have just posted the first and last paragraphs, but where's the fun in that? |
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Post by speedysteve on Jan 9, 2019 20:22:30 GMT
Well this spiralled to more than I2S  But interesting as always to explore around the edges of a subject. I like listening to music, discovering new stuff. That's why Spotify (or your favourite), is so compelling. Why explore at low-fi and then buy it is you like it - Well you would do that if you were into hifi / music and could explore widely only in low-fi. Martin certainly made me aware of the power of the RPi if treated right and it's potential as a quality low cost streamer. As an aside, why does Spotify sound relatively bad streamed through a PC or music server, whereas Tidal is good, generally comparable to stored FLACs? Martin brought his RPi -> SPdif setup here and I heard it up against my PC / FLACs first hand. It was pretty much as good. On some stuff it was better. Access to many excellent remastered albums that I would never go out and buy again is great! Some you can compare original Vs remastered right on tap. I also like their 'for me' mixes when the mood takes me. The I2S route in made perfect sense to me. Why convert I2S to SPdif only to re-convert it again in my DAC. I think that is what Martin is wanting to explore (I'm sure he'll put me right, and more if I'm wrong). Implementated in the right way the potential for is there. My motivation was the Allo Kali reclocker had great reviews and was cheaper than a Digione and a lot less then the Signature of theirs I would have otherwise gone for. Why plug and play when you can have hours of fun learning, installing and debugging, enjoying each step and refinement some things are fun to earn. One way to test SPdif Vs I2S would be to compare Martin's RPi/Allo Digione Spdif setup with my RPi/Allo Kali -> I2S into my DAC. In a rigid digital world they should sound the same.. double blind test would be interesting. Of course different DACs will have different Spdif and I2S implementations. So this would not be a definitive cover all DACs test. Interesting though, the designer of Najda put much thought and care into both routes in. I do like projects, like to get my hands fairly dirty DIY wise. That's part of the fun for me as well as great music and an evolving system. I pretty sure Martin is the same. |
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 9, 2019 21:31:18 GMT
Paul. Even in modest system a good digital transmission signal transfer device can be more than audiable imho True. I'm not advocating that we all go back to transistor radios, or boom-boxes, but there seems to come a point where it stops being about music and starts being more about chasing the next "upgrade." Not for me. There's been some rubbish here on TAS recently saying that audiophiles aren't music lovers. Well, I'm both - definitely and absolutely. For me they are two separate but mutually supportive pastimes. But there would be no point in the hifi without the music. As Mikemusic says, better hifi gives you more of the music. |
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Post by MartinT on Jan 9, 2019 22:08:13 GMT
I'm with Jerry on this. I'm an audiophile and a music lover. I could not be one without the other as it pleases both sides of my brain.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 9, 2019 22:13:29 GMT
speedysteve apologies as your post is about both I 2S and the love of music. To answer your questions: yes I want to go down the I 2S route and yes I'll be comparing it against S/PDIF. But ONLY if the music sounds better!
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 9, 2019 23:00:24 GMT
I'm far more interested in the music itself than how it reaches me. I think that's true of most music lovers, I really do. However, I'm also convinced that the higher the fidelity, the closer you are brought to the music and the more insight you gain. I don't think that's always the case for me - I can get as much pleasure from a favourite pop song coming on the radio when I'm in the car as I can from something at 'full rez' on the main system at home. |
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Post by Slinger on Jan 10, 2019 0:08:45 GMT
I'm with Jerry on this. I'm an audiophile and a music lover. I could not be one without the other as it pleases both sides of my brain. I'm not saying that the two are mutually exclusive. As I've said many times you should get the best system your wallet allows. What I'm talking about, and I'm sure we've all seen them, are the people who are stuck in an upgrade loop. They appear to have lost sight of the music and all they can think about is making their system "better" when often all they're doing is making it sound different each time. Every post they make is full of technobabble about their system and what they've done to it, or are going to do to it next, with no mention of music at all. They're not audiophiles, they're nutters masquerading as audiophiles which, again, is only a personal opinion. I also don't think it applies to anyone here. I do stick by my assertion that my hobby is music though and not hi-fi, which doesn't mean that other people shouldn't have more than one hobby. Hi-fi, to me, is a bit of fun but mostly it's a means to an end. I was trying to give my personal perspective, on what I like, what I don't, and what I've seen. I wasn't attempting to tell other people what they should or should not like, or do. |
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Post by ChrisB on Jan 10, 2019 0:17:40 GMT
It's like many things, politics being a good case in point. Most people are in the middle, and on certain aspects, they may lean a little more one way or the other. But there are always going to be a few people on the extreme opposites. They may be mad in their own way (not necessarily a bad thing, per se), but without them, there can be no middle ground.
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Post by brettj on Jan 10, 2019 1:29:21 GMT
What I'm talking about are the people who are stuck in an upgrade loop. I was on the upgrade trail last year. Started with speakers. Then interconnects. Then came the SEG Dac. And plenty of tweaks. Currently waiting for Seg to return, and power supply for Schumann, and grounding cable for iFi. Have found myself wondering, am I going to be able to relax and just enjoy my system when everything has arrived? The improvements in the delivery of sound will be undeniable from the start of last year. I am a little concerned. Am I going to be happy with it, or am I going to want to continue searching for better? |
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Post by John on Jan 10, 2019 5:48:10 GMT
I would like to think we are all music lovers. Certainly being able to stream with the quality of sound I get from it really works for me. I discover quite a few new albums every week and just follow my muse.
I think Brett raises a important question in time will he want to move further on and I really do not know this is such a individual experience. I am not sure there is a end point in ultimate sound quality.
With regards to Paul comment about how in the past we sometimes describe sound changes in terms of night and day differences I been guilty of that. These days I am deliberately more measured.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 10, 2019 6:20:14 GMT
What I'm talking about, and I'm sure we've all seen them, are the people who are stuck in an upgrade loop. They appear to have lost sight of the music and all they can think about is making their system "better" when often all they're doing is making it sound different each time. I've seen some forums full of them, but it's difficult, I suppose, to get the full picture when those forums are about the equipment. I recently joined Head-Fi and it's a massive forum, dwarfs almost everything I'm a member of except EduGeek. You could be mistaken for thinking that Head-Fi members are about the equipment only, but I really don't think you go out and buy specialist headphone equipment running into hundreds or thousands of Pounds just for the gear. There don't appear to be any Beats fans there, after all! I think that the number of posts we have in the combined 'What are you playing now?' threads (10,581 and 2,600), the number of Album Choices proferred and the chat about music and musicians attest to the fact that TAS members are music lovers first and foremost. If we keep it grounded, it should always be the case. Just a thought: with the dwindling numbers of people who are into hi-fi equipment, how many are left who are just into the equipment and stuck in the upgrade loop? |
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Post by John on Jan 10, 2019 7:04:31 GMT
In the end we are a HIFI forum but hopefully we have a good balance between talkIng about music and gear
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Post by zippy on Jan 10, 2019 9:21:57 GMT
It's a circular thing.
The more music I listen to, the more I want to improve my system to get the most from the music.
The more my system improves, the more pleasure I get from the music, hearing things that I didn't before.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 9:36:36 GMT
A very simple answer they are not a mutual partnership in the vast majority of cases audiophiles are not genuine music lovers by a long stretch, however they feel they are music lovers. They are appreciators of the 'beauty and picture' of sound rather than the ability of the music to involve them. Wow that piccolo in the far right hand corner of the stage is so right! You get the picture
Audiophiles on the whole tend to have more costly systems they are never happy with always chasing the sonic dragon for those last few percents of goal
in the uk they are much fewer real music lovers that one seek to take their systems to a higher for a number of reasons
from personal experiance music lovers will have fairly significant music collections and listen to music BECAUSE they are really interested in listening to music and not worrying about the last nth degree of slam, detail or expansive staging and they would listen to music on a kitchen dab radio quite happily
Over the years I have met many audiophiles from all over the world and they all share a sense of single minded purpose of surfing the golden ear canal for eargasmic sensations, the inhabit forums likes what's best and audio afficianardo etc
the amount of money these guys spend is quite something and they do it regularly, they will never be satisfied they will always be something better around the corner and they will move mountains to obtain what they feel is correct!
it is another way for mild manner men to be alpha males without beating their chests with such other wordly skills as smugness grade 4 with bar and clusters, aloofness with a side order of back handed compliments, understated bligerance PHD plus a side order of Macca for good measure. The keyboard warrior with time on their hands a entertaining individual for cozy nights in by the fire
back to audiophiles and music lovers on the whole two very different breeds of human without question, music lovers would shy away from Hifi shows like an aversion to depleated Urainium shells
a chap down the road from myself I met about five years ago he had just got divorced, he kept the house plus the odd stick for furniture plus his audio. Now he has the converted garage, a 3k system well sorted with Linn Kann's you can listen all afternoon gave a beer and it makes involving music just entertaining and very listenable an audiophile's nightmare, however it does make music
last analogy imagine you are in the national portrait galley in front of you is a famous Constable image, there are two groups people stood either side admiring the portrait
one group is discussing exactly what, mood he with in when he created the picture, which brushes and plus he used, which 'period it was painted in, why he felt the need to paint said subject. All of them having a heated discussion about these points
the other group equally admiring the portrait just smiling with the comment it's wonderful
now anything seem familiar ?
There are exceptions as with everything in life but audiophiles and obsession are two words that are mutually exclusive imho
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Post by SteveC on Jan 10, 2019 10:07:24 GMT
Tony, Stop wasting your time on the internet and get cracking with that soldering iron! |
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 10, 2019 10:16:56 GMT
LOL.
How boring it would be if when visiting the National Gallery, all I could think or say is 'thats nice'. Some paintings need and deserve a deeper understanding and appreciation, some can be taken more at surface value.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 10, 2019 10:26:34 GMT
When I'm listening to Mahler should I just think "that's nice" or is it ok to be aware of his huge conducting success, early reception to his compositions, the loss of his young daughter, the suspicion that his wife was cheating on him and ultimately the cancer that killed him? Am I allowed to wonder at the disposition of the orchestral forces and choirs in order to fit them all in when performing his 8th, as well as wonder at the masterful finale?
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