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Post by julesd68 on Jul 3, 2019 7:39:00 GMT
Conclusion - the D30 is superb VFM but the D70 is a very decent step up for a relatively modest price (around $499) but it WILL show up any issues with your system It was not for nothing that I wrote this and your system is yet another example, Jules. I've been through the journey and come out the other end, but an increase in resolution without taking care of other issues just shows them up more obviously than before. theaudiostandard.net/thread/4972/pursue-hi-res-cautionI've written a list of possible issues to investigate that may or may not improve sound quality, but what I'm struggling to understand at the moment is why solo piano specifically appears to be struggling. I can't make sense of it.  |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 3, 2019 8:14:48 GMT
I know it's hard but can you describe what you're hearing? Is it the percussive strike, the tonality or something else?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 8:22:06 GMT
Piano is a fundamental, if you are struggling with this what are mid and upper range male classical and operatic vocals like?
I suspect here you are looking at the following speaker position / speaker amplifier impedance / cable routing.
Even in modest systems, say £3000 total the D70 never seems so outshine its neighbors, if you step up it can grow with the system, the AKM dac chips are far more easier on average recording than any of the Sabre's (except Moon, which has a 'safe' filter applied)
The fact the D50 exasperated the issues would led you to look in other areas imho.
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Post by julesd68 on Jul 3, 2019 8:33:40 GMT
I know it's hard but can you describe what you're hearing? Is it the percussive strike, the tonality or something else? It's the piano timbre Martin. I know exactly how it should sound but just didn't hear the purity and accuracy of the tone. Muddy, murky and veiled are words that come to mind. Made the recordings sound distant, doesn't feel 'in the room'. I will have to see if I can describe it any better than that ... does that make the issue any clearer for you? |
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Post by julesd68 on Jul 3, 2019 8:36:36 GMT
Piano is a fundamental, if you are struggling with this what are mid and upper range male classical and operatic vocals like? I suspect here you are looking at the following speaker position / speaker amplifier impedance / cable routing. Even in modest systems, say £3000 total the D70 never seems so outshine its neighbors, if you step up it can grow with the system, the AKM dac chips are far more easier on average recording than any of the Sabre's (except Moon, which has a 'safe' filter applied) The fact the D50 exasperated the issues would led you to look in other areas imho. Ah, I don't do opera but could have tried out some countertenor male, but didn't think to try! I have already done a big cable tidy up so that's a start. |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 3, 2019 10:09:50 GMT
I would normally associate timbre with speakers, Jules.
Does another source sound different, are you able to play a record to compare?
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Post by julesd68 on Jul 3, 2019 13:22:34 GMT
DOH!!
I’ve just de-rigged all my analogue gear so not desperate to fire it up again right now!
I’m pretty sure (and hope) it’s not the speakers at issue old chap - all the other instruments appeared to be portrayed most accurately.
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Post by Slinger on Jul 3, 2019 13:33:10 GMT
Have you given up on the D50 and gone back to the D30 until you decide you're buying a D70, Jules?
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digititis
Jul 3, 2019 14:46:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by julesd68 on Jul 3, 2019 14:46:10 GMT
Yes Paul the D50 has been and gone - no point in spending more on it if it's just a stop-gap.
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Post by julesd68 on Jul 11, 2019 12:21:51 GMT
OK this is surprising. With Martin’s and John’s words ringing in my ears I decided to try ethernet with the digione. Fired up the system and started with Jason Mraz ‘Mr A-Z’ using wi-fi connection to get a reference point. Sounds ok, but not quite as open, funky and snappy as I know it can be. Plugged in my network cable, changed settings in Volumio. Hmm, think I can hear a difference, not sure. But I'm not excited about it so I check settings again and see it's showing both wired and wireless connections - I don’t know which it is using. I then lose connection with spoti completely, so reboot the digione and it now shows just the wired connection. Then wow, I fire it up and all of a sudden the system comes alive - what the hell is going on? Music is immediately more palpable, dynamics a go-go and I’m certainly feeling deeper bass. Trying a range of music, Triumph’s ‘Never Surrender' is utterly majestic as it should be. Journey’s ‘Separate Ways' - last time I heard it with John he found it a bit soft and lacking in rez. Well, even with ‘just’ the D30, whilst you can still tell it’s an old recording, this feels significantly better. Then it’s Pisces by Jinjer where I’m getting that deep, deep bass again, and in this more modern recording the guitars are much more biting than Journey, and as scary as it should be with that famous vocal change. Massive depth and soundstage, absolutely rockin’. Next it’s classical, Shosta 10 with Nelsons, which is my reference track - certainly has the spontaneous atmosphere of the live recording that it is; the snare and kettle drums have so much drama. In an ideal world I would want a bit more rez overall but it’s still supremely enjoyable. Now for Jerry’s Telemann Oboe Concerto that he posted this morning - the oboe is very convincingly portrayed with plenty of air and separation from the orchestra - I could listen to this all day, just luvverly! I’m a bit worried, everything is going so well.  So I have to do the dreaded piano test. Starting with Grieg and Leif Ove Andsnes, a super recording and performance. And guess what, it sounds like a piano should do. Not perfect, but very good indeed. Next up is Khatia Buniatishvili’s Schubert on Sony and damn, we come unstuck again like the last time when John was here. Wonderful playing but no rez, sounds like she is playing in a nuclear bunker with air-con - Houston we have a problem. Not willing to accept defeat just yet, I move onto another Sony recording, the estimable Kathryn Stott playing Debussy and Ravel. Aaaahhh - that’s more like it, I know what a piano should sound like and this does, so much more clarity and sparkle to it! Stunning, listening to it now. I'm suspicious - can this really be the wired connection making such a difference? Maybe doing my excellent cable tidy up helped as well, not sure ... Anyway, who cares as at the end of the day, it sounds great.  |
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Post by Slinger on Jul 11, 2019 12:30:24 GMT
If I'd realised you were still using a wireless connection I'd have added my vote to the "wired" argument, Jules. It does make a difference, even to my modest setup.
A good "rule of thumb," by the way, Jules, is whenever you change a setting on Volumio perform a reboot, whether it's suggested or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2019 12:45:26 GMT
Wired if possible all the way.
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Post by John on Jul 11, 2019 12:46:52 GMT
Good result Jules
RFI is a killer to getting the best from digital. WiFi is on the same board which is not good for the sound quality
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Post by julesd68 on Jul 11, 2019 13:07:53 GMT
A good "rule of thumb," by the way, Jules, is whenever you change a setting on Volumio perform a reboot, whether it's suggested or not. Thanks Paul, I will be doing that for sure in future. |
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Post by nrg on Jul 11, 2019 21:53:17 GMT
But the device is still receiving WiFi it’s still submerged in RFI. Maybe with the WiFi function enabled it’s modulating the PSU in some way affecting the sound. Good you have it sorted though!
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Post by Stratmangler on Jul 12, 2019 1:21:50 GMT
The next step is using ferrite clamps on the LAN patch lead. One at each end of the patch cable.
The PSUs for the wired network will likely be SMPS, which translates to RFI being present due to switching noise and cable inductance (the latter being something that telecoms engineers have known about for donkey's ages). You live in The Smoke, which means that you have a lot of close neighbours who have a multitude of SMPS devices, all generating RFI that your equipment will be picking up. You may need to go on a ferrite clamp installing expedition - buy 50 of them for starters, and don't use them sparingly  |
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Post by julesd68 on Jul 12, 2019 8:22:56 GMT
Will do, that's an inexpensive tweak.
My Sky router is pretty old now - I notice there is no external SMPS, just a plug and figure 8 cord.
I might see if they will give me a new one - is it worth thinking of a linear psu for that?
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Post by John on Jul 12, 2019 9:15:43 GMT
Yes
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Post by Stratmangler on Jul 12, 2019 10:50:04 GMT
Yes, although it won't entirely remove the problems. The router itself will have a requirement for various voltages in different parts of the circuit, and they'll have an internal switching supply to provide it. By changing the main SMPS with a LPSU you'll have sorted out the highest amplitude part of the problem. Ferrites on the patch leads help mop up the router's internal switching noise.
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Post by Clive on Jul 12, 2019 11:03:11 GMT
Running supercap based power supplies for pi, dac and amp where viable could well have the greatest impact in terms of removing noise. Not inexpensive though unlike ferrites.
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So I have to do the dreaded piano test. Starting with Grieg and Leif Ove Andsnes, a super recording and performance. And guess what, it sounds like a piano should do. Not perfect, but very good indeed. Next up is Khatia Buniatishvili’s Schubert on Sony and damn, we come unstuck again like the last time when John was here. Wonderful playing but no rez, sounds like she is playing in a nuclear bunker with air-con - Houston we have a problem. Not willing to accept defeat just yet, I move onto another Sony recording, the estimable Kathryn Stott playing Debussy and Ravel. Aaaahhh - that’s more like it, I know what a piano should sound like and this does, so much more clarity and sparkle to it! Stunning, listening to it now.
