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Post by daytona600 on Jul 22, 2014 20:54:26 GMT
Martin
Agreed, but that's not what we are discussing here. It's the ability of your system to handle peaks without compression or clipping.
Agreed 100% as music has peaks unless you listen to test tones Output should be based on peaks in the music with some room to spare
I went this way with 94dB Eff Stats & amps that are measured in HorsePower not Wpc as they never run out of steam on climaxes
plus having kilowatts of power if great Fun with rock , electronica & Symphonies
or if you are Loaded & can find them 120db WE Horns from 1923 with 2wpc at munich this year filling a huge room & sounding almost like live music
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Post by MartinT on Jul 22, 2014 21:07:15 GMT
Yep, high efficiency certainly reduces the power requirements. Those horns would be fun to accommodate, just for the negative WAF  |
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Post by welder on Jul 22, 2014 21:08:55 GMT
This is the problem with most measurements in hifi , they aint designed for measuring music .
Thd is a measurement at 1 frequency [ usually 1khz] and there is of course plenty of 1khz music .
Tony Benn ,famously asked - What power have you got?
Where did you get it from?
In whose interests do you use it?
To whom are you accountable?
How do we get rid of you?
The hifi equivalent
what is the measurement? , what does it measure , how does it manifest itself , what is it supposed to tell my about my experience of listening to music on my hifi and how does it do that ,
I guarantee anybody answering these questions accurately and honestly and your only retort will be - That's rubbish and you ignore measurements
Watts. Power. Depends on the system. in this case, the conversion of electrical energy to kinetic energy. It doesn’t tell you anything about about your experience of listening to music on your Hi Fi and only a fool could believe that it could. What it can tell you is whether an amplifier has enough power to drive loudspeakers of known parameters. There is no music. There is however a signal, in this case electrical that is converted to kinetic energy that produces a pressure wave. You may, or may not consider that pressure wave as musical.I can send a signal from beginning to end of my audio system without playing a single note.  There is no music, no fairies, no magic or black art. It’s just electronics that may or may not reproduce what one may subjectively judge to be music, if that is what the signal represents. Your guarantee is worthless. Watts in this case do tell the whole story. How an amplifier achieves the delivery of those watts into a given load is a different question. It’s fairly easy to prove this points. Feed an your speakers zero Watts and those funny cone things make no sound. let alone music You can try feeding them something else if you like......  |
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Post by danielquinn on Jul 23, 2014 6:29:14 GMT
Welder you are being deliberately disingenuous.
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Post by John on Jul 23, 2014 6:44:05 GMT
I wonder how many people actually recognise clipping when they hear it
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Post by MartinT on Jul 23, 2014 7:41:50 GMT
I wonder how many people actually recognise clipping when they hear it I doubt that many do. |
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Post by walpurgis on Jul 23, 2014 10:28:54 GMT
I wonder how many people actually recognise clipping when they hear it Clipping is less common these days, as speaker sensitivity has become generally higher and amplifiers more powerful and with better power supplies. Back in the seventies, when the average amplifier power was somewhere between 15 and 30 watts and low sensitivity Bextrene coned speakers were the vogue, clipping often happened. The sound is unmistakable though. |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 23, 2014 10:32:18 GMT
Less obvious, but still damaging to sound quality, is compression or limiting.
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Post by welder on Jul 23, 2014 10:41:35 GMT
Welder you are being deliberately disingenuous If you are implying that I am deliberately lying then I would ask you to either prove me wrong, or retract your comment. If on the other hand you are suggesting that I have deliberately over simplified then perhaps you would care to elaborate. You asked four questions in your post, all of which I have answered with complete honesty. I can’t be held responsible for you either not liking, or not understanding the basic science involved in audio reproduction. Nor am I remotely apologetic for showing your guarantee to be worthless. Watt, Power, Signal and many other terms involved in audio have fairly strict definitions; music on the other hand doesn’t and is completely subjective in appreciation. There is no music flowing through your stereo system; a point that is too often overlooked when discussing audio reproduction equipment. We commonly call the files we have stored a representation of music, our music files but they are in fact audio files. The goal of Hi Fidelity is to reproduce perfectly the signal retrieved from a given media. The fact that many of us use this science to listen to what we call music in no way invalidates this. It is true that many people involved in the building and selling of Hi Fi equipment concentrate on trying to make their equipment sound ‘musical’. This often conflicts with the goal of accurate reproduction mentioned above. I personally don’t care whether people purchase their audio equipment by what sounds subjectively like the better representation of music, or by what can be shown to be a more accurate representation of the original waveform, or anywhere between the two for that matter. I do however believe it is worth being accused of being pedantic in cases that involve scientific principles in order to limit the myths that are constantly reinforced by those wishing to sell products as Hi Fidelity products that are in fact nothing of the sort or those who seek to mislead the reader while promoting any agenda that seeks to negate the science with dogma. If you do in fact have any proof that measurement is the fundamental flaw or even unnecessary in Hi Fidelity please present it here. If on the other hand you do not understand why it may be beneficial for those who are capable of using it to achieve the given goal of a Hi Fidelity audio system then I can only suggest a more thorough education. If on the other hand what you actually meant, but did not write, that measurement has no role in the appreciation of music then you will get no argument from me. |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 23, 2014 11:01:58 GMT
Welder you are being deliberately disingenuous. I waited to see how welder would respond to this, and he has taken it well. However, it was near ad hominem, as I'm sure you will agree when starting a sentence "You are being..."
It would be more valuable to discuss aspects of his post where you disagree and stating why.
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Post by jammy on Jul 23, 2014 11:19:35 GMT
I dont like hifi Measurement Monkeys - Ears are the best musical measurement instruments we have.
Both welder and Dan are spot on.
Some folk seem so wraped up in the measurement bullshit its a wonder they can acctualy enjoy the music.
"Hold on a second...That Bagpipe sounded a tad flat, im off for my oscilloscope pronto"
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Post by pre65 on Jul 23, 2014 11:33:25 GMT
Measurement monkeys ? 
Sometimes measurements are a way of finding out why an amplifier is not sounding as good as it might. Identifying the cause enables corrections to be made. 
PS
I have an oscilloscope and a signal generator but not learned how to use them - yet. 
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Post by MartinT on Jul 23, 2014 12:24:51 GMT
Ears are the best musical measurement instruments we have. I'm with you, Jammy. Ears must be the final arbiter. However, measurements can help.
Also, look at DC's sig which sums it up nicely. |
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Post by danielquinn on Jul 23, 2014 15:19:01 GMT
As it is ninety degrees and I am in a beer garden by the ribble. Welder I will say for now you robbed the debate and what i said of nuance for the sake of a cheap retort .I can get that at pfm.
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Post by daytona600 on Jul 23, 2014 16:58:46 GMT
those are just the Mid Horns martin full WE Systems are huge even the power amps are fitted with Wheels mind you 2014 hiend show & the best sound used speakers from 1923 www.silbatoneacoustics.com/look at the WAV factor |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 17:24:00 GMT
Interesting discussion.
The designer of my new amps has this to say about them:
Hopefully they will prove suitable, but I don't think that 30MHz is going to be much use to me.
Oh, the amps are rated at 25W.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 23, 2014 17:52:05 GMT
25A transistors are not that unusual these days and the 30MHz performance is irrelevant since the closed loop bandwidth is likely to be much lower. 25W would indicate class A which means it'll be fast.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 18:35:41 GMT
Yep, high efficiency certainly reduces the power requirements. Too much efficiency can be an headache imho.. I never go past 90dB fer speakerz. & Ive never been one for high power amps low efficiency Speakers. |
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Post by pre65 on Jul 23, 2014 19:12:01 GMT
With 100db speakers even 1W can sound magnificent.
Some of the best sounds I've ever heard have been low output valve amps and high efficiency speakers. 
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Post by Greg on Jul 23, 2014 19:45:38 GMT
I agree Philip, but that isn't the end of the argument. You are forgetting Nick's headroom beliefs, which I share. Regardless of how sensitive the speakers are, they will benefit by being fed by an amp that has more than enough output to drive them. IMHO and experience, headroom is key to an excellent sound.
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