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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 15:22:46 GMT
I've always liked this term. It usually means "they tell it like it is". Even if you sometimes don't like it, you can respect they are not gonna bullshit you.
what has this to do with speakers? Well I'm referring to speakers that fire straight at you.Whilst they may technically be "straight shooters" I don't actually feel they "tell it like it is", for me at least. I tend to find their delivery somewhat forced and un-natural in comparison to semi-omnis or sloped/upward firing speakers.
Looking at my favourite speakers, they have almost always had a twist to them. Even the Impulse/Aspara horns had a downward flaring horn. Others I've loved are Isobariks (semi omni) SBLs, Spica TC50 and Spica Angelus (sloped), NVA and my own DIY cubes (semi omni again). I even used Arcam Twos firing upward.
Now I'm the last one to preach to others about wnat they "should" hear and what they ought to like. But......and it's a big but: so many speakers follow the forward facing route that I'll bet lots of people haven't had the chance to try alternatives. I genuinely wonder what greater exposure to semi omnis would do to the speaker market. I think it would be a revelation to many.
Anyone else love semi-omnis or sloped speakers? Why do you think they are the exception? Do most makers just follow a "me too" approach and try to fit in with expectations? Do you think it's cost driven and these speakers are cheaper to make? Do you think it's simply that conventional speakers are actually more accurate or enjoyable? I'd love to hear other people's thoughts: particularly as I'm keen to understand why something I hear as "better" is such a minority solution.
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Post by MartinT on Dec 11, 2017 15:28:53 GMT
Mine have a gentle baffle slope to compensate for time alignment, however I would still call them straight shooters. I like them, particularly when combined with absorptive room treatment, because they give me more direct sound and less of the room. This matches my preference for hearing what's on the recording, not what the room bounces around.
I love spatial and depth cues when they're in the recording. I don't like what rooms want to add to the sound.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 15:48:06 GMT
It's a fascinating topic, Martin and I want to learn from all perspectives.
On one hand, I'm also a convert to room treatments, since moving up to my echo-chamber of an apartment. The treatments transform music, but also make the room far nicer to live in. It's surprising just how much of a negative effect the reflective surfaces had on my perception. Removing the reflections just makes me feel more at ease all the time.
On the other hand, I wonder about the accuracy of firing sound at the listener because voices and instruments are by-and large omni-directional. But then again, they don't fire sound out in a stereo pair, like all speakers do, so I'm unsure of the relevance.
It's all a bit confusing to get my head round, so I have to go with my instincts. So far they have told me there is something my brain finds "not right" about every straight shooter I've ever heard. I'm not ruling out the possibility of finding an exception to this, but that's been the pattern so far. I know you've heard semi-omnis, so you've clearly not found the same situation. I just wonder how many have heard a few examples of both and what difference it would make if they did.
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Post by MartinT on Dec 11, 2017 17:32:22 GMT
Flat panels and open baffles are interesting, as they fire backwards and forwards and are something between straight shooters and omnis in operation. There are not many that I have liked, with the exception of the Martin Logan CLX.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 17:50:51 GMT
I have limited experience so far. Quad ELS and ESL 63 have bass and drive problems I can't see past. Maggies just sounded dreadful to me, so again, I was t able to hear them properly. A mate's Martin Logans were too close to a rear wall and just sounded drowned in bass, I did have Apogee Centaurs, which I really liked, but they were a bit "full on" and only had a small sweet spot. I think I could really like full range Apogees though. I've never heard an OB, unless you count the mid and treble on SD1s (which I did like) and some Dahlquists I heard at a mate's (again pretty good).
I get why panels aren't that common. They are always going to be costly and they may not be something everyone could accommodate. You'd think there would be more OB speakers out there though.
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Post by ChrisB on Dec 11, 2017 19:25:27 GMT
I've been a fan of this approach for a long time - I think both can be great but maybe the difference can be too much for some folks to get their heads around and embrace! I know it takes some people a little while to tune in to having the whole room loaded like an omni or multi-directional speaker can.
I loved the SD Acostics designs (SD1 and OBS) and they introduced a bit of air and space into the soundstage but they didn't behave like an omni or pseudo-omni. In the right installation, they were able to do electrostatic like imaging though.
The first speaker I knew of with doubled up front and back drivers was the Snell Type C, which had a sloping upper baffle (a bit like the Naim SBL) and an extra rear firing tweeter - but not the UK ones for some reason! The front and back theme is what I have favoured with the speakers in my main system (Mirage M-3si) - treble and mid-range drivers doubled up and wired in phase. The next model up did it with the bass drivers too.
Normal box speakers are like windows that give you a great view of the scenery outside if you are located in the right place. That view can be great but there is another way.
Martin says he doesn't like the effects of the room and yes, the room is a huge influence on normally configured speakers but I think a good multi-directional speaker can just remove the room entirely. Paradoxically, it does so by using the room. You just need to temporarily forget the way you are used to having a hifi present music to you. It can be just a bit less like a hifi.
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Post by MartinT on Dec 11, 2017 23:15:52 GMT
Just different ways to achieve the goal, Chris. I get that and have heard omnis and panels sound superb at various times in the past. I guess I started going down this road when I first bought the TubeTraps, which are tunable between absorption and reflection by rotating them. I always preferred maximum absorption. Since then, I've attempted to kill the room to a level where it doesn't upset me. Much more successfully in this room than the previous one.
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Post by John on Dec 12, 2017 5:17:57 GMT
I usually have issues when I hear big loudspeakers as I can usually hear a bit of the box. However Martin has managed to overcome these issues with all the hard work, as Martin knows I can be quite critical with sound
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Post by steveeb on Dec 12, 2017 9:55:44 GMT
I'd imagine that most on this forum would consider themselves critical of sound John, but have differing priorities - must-haves and acceptable compromises. What we look for or accept in a speaker changes with exposure and experience but it's a simplistic retail generalisation that the one with the biggest bass will be chosen, a fact which must colour mainstream design decisions. I'd imagine that among experienced audiophiles some form of multi directional output is more common than not Spica - and that you're not in the minority  I remember having small 'straight shooters' and experimenting with siting them in free space, reflecting their output from the rear wall as per Jimmy Hughes. It wasn't a eureka moment, the detail wasn't focussed enough and needed refinement, but I did get to hear the attraction and benefits from a more Omni-style presentation. Now here I am, a lifetime later producing these: www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/electricbeach-blackwoods-floorstanding-loudspeakersI've been making FH3's for a few years and although this design has evolved from them and shares similarities, fundamental changes mean the end result is rather different. My first action was to go from a sloped baffle to a vertical one. Sloping to facilitate time alignment of multiple drivers is valid, also for speakers like my nOrh 9.0 which are sited low to fire up to ear height, but I find floor bounce subjectively more benign than encouraging midband ceiling reflection just above your head. More importantly, taking the main driver output directly to you in the fastest straight line maximises the difference to the delayed ambient information. I got a lot of inspiration and understanding from the work of James Romeyn and Duke LeJeune at www.audiokinesis.com , especially how to make a small speaker sound like a big one! I think you'll find they speak to your heart Spica and in part answer why you like what you like... |
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Post by MartinT on Dec 12, 2017 10:08:38 GMT
Flabby, boomy or one-note bass will put me right off a speaker but maybe I'm in the minority. However, I do prefer good bass to be there for a properly visceral experience.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2017 10:12:58 GMT
I was actually tempted by the earliest Frugelhorn DIY cabinets and drivers quite some time ago. I have never heard a dual concentric but I have heard single driver horns and found them very easy to listen to. I realise a single driver probably involves other compromises but it can't be ideal having two drivers trying to overlap, especially in the part of the frequency spectrum that most speakers cross over. Townshend Gastonburys crossed over much higher than the norm; between 6 and 8 kHz and they were more seamless than any other 2 way I have heard.
One day I'd like to hear the FH3. In fact I'd like to own a pair at one stage because just having a listen to things isn't enough to really get to know them. Right now it's not an option, but theres always tomorrow.
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Post by steveeb on Dec 12, 2017 11:41:59 GMT
I was actually tempted by the earliest Frugelhorn DIY cabinets and drivers quite some time ago. I have never heard a dual concentric but I have heard single driver horns and found them very easy to listen to. I realise a single driver probably involves other compromises but it can't be ideal having two drivers trying to overlap, especially in the part of the frequency spectrum that most speakers cross over. Townshend Gastonburys crossed over much higher than the norm; between 6 and 8 kHz and they were more seamless than any other 2 way I have heard. One day I'd like to hear the FH3. In fact I'd like to own a pair at one stage because just having a listen to things isn't enough to really get to know them. Right now it's not an option, but theres always tomorrow. I'll talk with you tomorrow then!  In a way your comments go to the heart of your initial question, namely perception of 'better' and what's considered to be correct/ normal. As example, the majority of people are so used to hearing that 50Hz boost they are immediately drawn to it's absence on every song. A professional classical musician friend asked me why so much HiFi adds bass which is just not there in reality. I sat in on a rehearsal of his quartet and there was about 20% of the bass that I would expect from my own ideal reproduction of the performance at home. We all want a sound with a balance of elements which we personally enjoy and all this talk of faithful to the original is self delusion. I agree with what you've said there and I think we probably like a similar presentation and set of compromises. Coherence from a point source has it's charm, as does slamming dynamics, as does holographic imaging, as does etc etc, but the mechanics of getting it all in one place more often than not strangles the musical, emotional connection. I heard a nice analogy recently which resonates with my thinking, that there is no straight line path to a 'correct' endgame of reproduction, which we are either following or have deviated from. Constructing a replay system is like cooking a dish - a little of this aspect, an element of that. When it's good you revel in the flavour and texture and ask for the recipe - or the artist and album. |
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Post by karatestu on Feb 14, 2018 12:41:05 GMT
I am firmly in the semi Omni loving gang now after introducing myself to them last year. There is something just so right about the presentation for me. I don't feel everything is forced in your face like some of the point & squirt (love that phrase) speakers do, the whole room seems to be full of music.
I started with a home made sealed semi Omni design using RD's 5.5" doped mid bass with a visaton fabric dome tweeter. It instantly blew me away. Not content with this and as I already had some of RD's doped 12" woofers I decided to add some big front firing sealed bass cubes which the smaller semi Omni cuboids could sit on. There was no going back then, I have fallen in love with the bass on offer from the larger drivers. RD happily agreed to send me two more doped 12 inchers and I converted my two bass cubes to isobaric configuration. Wow, extended deep bass but as tight as a ducks arse in water.
My set up is different because I have a 3way semi Omni with the 12" woofers front firing at floor level, the mid upfiring and the tweeter front firing at ear level. It works very well and I like 3 way speakers. 3 way semi Omni with 12" woofers and 5 inch mid firing upwards is just not workable as the cabinet gets much to wide or deep . RD has it about right for two ways with 8" up firing mid bass and front firing tweeter. Then there are the cubix models with multiple mid bass units in isobaric configuration.
Stu
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2018 13:34:04 GMT
I just don't seem able to enjoy straight shooters any more. The difference is akin to being in a crowded city during rush hour compared to being out in the open looking up at the stars.
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Post by karatestu on Feb 14, 2018 14:16:47 GMT
I just don't seem able to enjoy straight shooters any more. The difference is akin to being in a crowded city during rush hour compared to being out in the open looking up at the stars. Excellent analogy. Describes it very well for me too. Some point & squirt can be too fatiguing like the city rush hour. I'm a country boy and being in the open looking up at the stars is heavenly  The crossover region between mid and tweeter is so much easier to accomplish well with a semi Omni. I did worry about having forward firing 12 inchers but the doping takes care of the higher frequencies this driver is capable of and does not overlap with the tweeter. It is a shame that my woofers are not in mechanical phase with the floor but hey, you can't have everything. At least the mid (which at 5" does produce bass) is in phase with the floor. Stu |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 14, 2018 21:12:15 GMT
The whole recording process is skewed for anything. There's no real way to capture the sound field as experienced by the listener in a live setting without using a dummy head and then listening back via headphones. even then you lose the physical effects of lower bass and directional cues. I guess we just have to accept that any speaker type is a compromise. Straight shooters fire the sound at you and you pick up all the edge effects, diffraction, room reflections, additional time effects and phase discontinuities. Semi omnis add more (% wise) of the room onto the original recording due to the diffuse nature of the sound, but the presentation of the sound is more like a natural environment in so much as it's diffused. Semi omnis also probably have a less stark 'room addition' to the sound as it comes from all around.
Either way there's good and bad examples of both, neither is strictly accurate to the original event. Just go with what you like.
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Post by MartinT on Feb 15, 2018 8:20:20 GMT
Semi omnis add more (% wise) of the room onto the original recording due to the diffuse nature of the sound, but the presentation of the sound is more like a natural environment in so much as it's diffused. There are definitely compromises to both approaches. I prefer straight shooters provided I can make the room as dead as possible to allow the speakers to do the talking and not the room. That way I can hear more of the performance acoustic. It's still very recording dependent, though. |
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Post by karatestu on Feb 15, 2018 8:53:39 GMT
In a domestic environment where the hifi is in a room used by the family (lounge) and not a dedicated listening room, there are problems which can not be overcome. Speakers have limited positional possibilities and I would not try and force any room treatments on my wife. Filling the room with soft furnishings and bookcases full of books, vinyl and cd's helps. With the above in mind I find semi Omni much easier to accommodate in my room. As RD would put it they play with the room and don't fight it. Of course semi Omni has its limitations - they don't like high ceilings and find it hard to fill a big room as people have found out at shows and bake offs. In my house and situation semi Omni are god sent Stu |
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Post by MartinT on Feb 15, 2018 8:58:13 GMT
I've heard omnis sound great in a well setup room, so I'm not knocking them, and I agree that they're better suited to multi-use rooms.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 14:56:26 GMT
It's great to have choices. I just wish more people had the chance to hear what semi omnis can do. So may people who come across them seem to find it a revelation. It rook me about 20 years to find them because so many speakers just follow the norm. Hopefully a pair will make it to ASBO.
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