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Post by SteveC on May 8, 2017 19:08:02 GMT
Has anyone else been tempted to try any of the various system grounding (whether signal or chassis, or both) boxes/solutions that seemed to have proliferated the market in the last few years? Vertex have their range of PICO component boxes for grounding individual sources, preamps, amps and speakers, Russ Andrews does a simple Ben Duncan designed box that allows you to ground the chassis of system components and drain RFI to an outside buried copper spike (and comply with the latest Regulations) and Entreq have been busy getting their range of wooden "sand boxes" into various high-end systems. I use the RA box to connect the grounding point on my (Vertex AQ) Alethea PSU2 to a copper spike buried in the garden outside. I also use a Gutwire 'Perfect Ground' cable to connect a spare RCA socket on my preamp to the mains earth. To my ears, both solutions have contributed to a lower system noise floor. I was given a short home demo of an Entreq Tellus box to ground one of the negative outputs on my power amp, but to be honest, I was struggling to hear an improvement over the short term. Indeed, other users have reported gains after a period of settlement. To be honest, I have never liked the look of the Entreq boxes and the number and expense in attaching a few of them to the system has been a turn-off. Then I read this article by Roy Gregory (yes, I know!) and a British company and innovative designer has thrown his cap in the ring! Any thoughts on the subject from TAS members? www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/cad_gc1_gc3.htm
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Post by John on May 8, 2017 19:26:45 GMT
I had my house rewired a few years back with all new earth connections it was a nice and unepected increase in sound quality as was a genreal re-wire I did not expect it to affect the sound qulaity
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Post by MartinT on May 8, 2017 19:46:45 GMT
I used to have an earth spike in my previous house. I now use the earth into my house, which is a very short run from the incoming feed and has only 0.24 Ohms impedance. I doubt I could even match that with a spike. In any case, everything sounds much better now.
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Post by SteveC on May 9, 2017 7:53:52 GMT
I believe it is more than just providing a 'clean' earth and relates to the high frequency noise that is produced by individual system components that limit performance. I am not technical and have been amazed that this subject has managed to reach 234 pages on the "What's Best" hi fi forum, discussing the Entreq approach! Here is the explanatory background paper (I won't call it a 'White Paper' as some of our members get upset!) on the CAD website:- www.computeraudiodesign.com/CAD_Ground_Control.pdf
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Post by pinkie on May 9, 2017 8:13:43 GMT
I used to have an earth spike in my previous house. I now use the earth into my house, which is a very short run from the incoming feed and has only 0.24 Ohms impedance. I doubt I could even match that with a spike. In any case, everything sounds much better now. You couldn't match that with a spike since the impedance of the spike is usually around 15 ohm itself and then you have the soil impedance to the nearest transformer earth binding point You do not have 0.24 ohm resistance to EARTH. You are talking about a (misnamed) earth loop impedance test. This measures the impedance between your live phase connection (the brown wire) and the safety ground connection (the green and yellow wire). It is measuring the impedance to complete the circuit to the neutral leg of the transformer which is bonded to earth at the transformer (and other points along the line). Since your earth and neutral are bonded at the input to your house, you are measuring the impedance of live to neutral through the green and yellow wire To measure the impedance to EARTH from your LIVE wire the electrician would have needed to stick a ground spike in the real soil outside. Noise doesn't "flow away" to earth anyway. Be very careful about having mixed earth / arrangements as stevec seems to be describing - as Barry pointed out TT arrangements (effectively that isolated ground spike) need RCD protection
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Post by MartinT on May 9, 2017 8:17:41 GMT
Yes, I'm well aware of all that. A spike can provide local housing with a dangerous path to earth through your property. Never do it without consulting a qualified electrician.
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Post by SteveC on May 9, 2017 9:04:30 GMT
The Ben Duncan designed Russ Andrews RF Router that I use to connect the earthing terminal on my Alethea PSU2 Balanced Power Supply to an outside copper rod is described here:-
What is the RF Router?
Grounding the metal casework on your system, by running an earth cable to an earth terminal on your mains socket, PowerBlock or even an additional earth spike, can bring real sonic benefits. By introducing the RF Router to this setup you'll improve its effectiveness even more and, if you're using an earth rod, bring it up to current electrical wiring regulations. The Router works by effectively separating off RF grounding, effectively 'dumping' high frequency noise out of your system. In use in our systems, the RF Router brought about a surprisingly large improvement in sound quality giving a cleaner sound with less 'hash', more solid bass and better soundstage width and depth.
Who should use the RF Router?
Every system that incorporates an additional, external earth rod that is connected to the mains earth should use an RF Router fitted inline between the rod and the earthing point.
The RF Router can also be used very successfully even if you don’t use an external earth rod. Use it to link the casework grounds of your CD player and amplifier, for example, to the earth terminal on the front of our sockets or our mains extensions to ground casework ‘RF’.
About the wiring regulations The latest (17th) edition of the IEE's Wiring Regulations state that you should now no longer add an additional earth rod to your domestic ring main earth. This is something which was previously allowed and many people have had an additional earth rod installed to improve their system's sound quality. We've developed our RF Router to allow you to continue to use an additional external earth rod and comply with the latest regulations. When installed, it means that your additional earth rod is not directly connected to the mains earth, while ensuring that noise and RF is dumped out of your system.
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Post by SteveC on May 9, 2017 9:21:01 GMT
Handily, for non-technical people like myself, that nice Mr Andrews has produced a descriptive account of his approach to system grounding (with pictures!) together with links to the necessary components to purchase on his website. I certainly would not pay the exorbitant price he is asking for a copper rod to bury in the ground. I got a thicker one from Tool Station in Winchester for about £5. www.russandrews.com/images/pdf/GroundingArticleV3.pdf
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Post by pinkie on May 9, 2017 9:45:16 GMT
The Ben Duncan designed Russ Andrews RF Router that I use to connect the earthing terminal on my Alethea PSU2 Balanced Power Supply to an outside copper rod is described here:- What is the RF Router? Grounding the metal casework on your system, by running an earth cable to an earth terminal on your mains socket, PowerBlock or even an additional earth spike, can bring real sonic benefits. By introducing the RF Router to this setup you'll improve its effectiveness even more and, if you're using an earth rod, bring it up to current electrical wiring regulations. The Router works by effectively separating off RF grounding, effectively 'dumping' high frequency noise out of your system. In use in our systems, the RF Router brought about a surprisingly large improvement in sound quality giving a cleaner sound with less 'hash', more solid bass and better soundstage width and depth. Who should use the RF Router? Every system that incorporates an additional, external earth rod that is connected to the mains earth should use an RF Router fitted inline between the rod and the earthing point. The RF Router can also be used very successfully even if you don’t use an external earth rod. Use it to link the casework grounds of your CD player and amplifier, for example, to the earth terminal on the front of our sockets or our mains extensions to ground casework ‘RF’. About the wiring regulations The latest (17th) edition of the IEE's Wiring Regulations state that you should now no longer add an additional earth rod to your domestic ring main earth. This is something which was previously allowed and many people have had an additional earth rod installed to improve their system's sound quality. We've developed our RF Router to allow you to continue to use an additional external earth rod and comply with the latest regulations. When installed, it means that your additional earth rod is not directly connected to the mains earth, while ensuring that noise and RF is dumped out of your system. I've just deleted the post I had in draft cos I had an "aha". I think I can guess what it is doing. I guess it takes your ground (with the noise on it) and splits into a path with RF and the safety ground via a filter. The "RF" goes to your earth spike, whilst voltages below RF ( a mains fault current) continues to have a path to the TN earth. Pointless (since it relies on the myth that noise "goes away" anywhere) but it appears to maintain the safety connection. Slightly bizarre, since if noise did "go away" anywhere, it would presumably go away best down the route of lowest impedance, which would be the TN route it is now filtered away from. But that's audiophile mains tweaking for you The irony of this is that if you have noise from your ground coupled to your system , the highest noise will be that directly attributable to the mains at LF and not the relatively insignificant RF stuff. Filtering the RF stuff, if it does anything at all, leaves you the LF muck still affecting your system. If you effectively remove (bad term - prevent from entering) all noise on your signal (or get it below an acceptable level) then it makes no odds whether the noise is pure loud LF or a cocktail of loud LF and quieter RF. This is the irony of most audiophile mains treatments - they change the nature of the noise polluting your system instead of keeping it out.
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Post by SteveC on May 9, 2017 10:11:14 GMT
So. Shall I put you down as a non-believer then?
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Post by MartinT on May 9, 2017 11:08:07 GMT
You do not have 0.24 ohm resistance to EARTH. Effectively, you do if the neutral bonding to earth at intervals along the line is of such low impedance as to be immaterial. Which leads to... It does if you present it with a path that has a lower effective impedance. This is how passive plug-in filters work: capacitors direct the high frequency noise to a lower impedance (earth), as well as short it across live/neutral, in a delta configuration while having no effect on the 50Hz waveform itself.
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Post by MikeMusic on May 9, 2017 11:37:10 GMT
We went through various stages of earth and sound improvements as our house was refurbed. Never ceased to amaze me. Main changes, newer, bigger and more substantial. All done by a gratifyingly anal sparky
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Post by pinkie on May 9, 2017 13:43:40 GMT
So. Shall I put you down as a non-believer then? More a preferer of alternative solutions. My experience of good engineers is that they have delivered good results to me personally and when running PT. To keep paying the bills, they need to continue providing results for their current clients. I have yet to be impressed by any "mains fiddling" from HiFi enthusiasts. Indeed quite the opposite. On the 3 occasions I went to James (Sovereigns) house to listen to his system, there was obvious hum, and nothing in the dedicated spur, huge balanced power supply, and chunky specialist mains leads left me wanting to find out more. He was a lovely guy, lovely company, we listened to some great music, but the mains guff was just one more in a series of being underwhelmed. Maybe Wonky will show me otherwise when I see him next. But you know, after a few dozen times of finding what your engineer friends said checks out when you try it yourself, you start to credit them with understanding what's going on.
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Post by SteveC on May 12, 2017 15:02:28 GMT
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Post by MartinT on May 12, 2017 21:31:40 GMT
Being Nordost, I'm sure it has a reassuringly expensive price to match.
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Post by SteveC on May 12, 2017 22:33:19 GMT
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