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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 22:14:24 GMT
I use Asset UPnP software via a Apple Mac to stream to my Naim NDX and generally import all of my CDs via iTunes in Applelossless (ALAC).
I'd read somewhere online that Naim streamers cannot read ALAC in its native form, but could read FLAC and WAV, so I'd been thinking about re-importing all of my albums, but was put off of by the length of time that it would likely take. I read elsewhere you can configure Asset UPnP to encode on the fly to WAV or FLAC, so I thought I'd try it out, I chose WAV.
To my absolute amazement, by making this small change, it has improved the sound immensely. Before there was a slight hint of harshness on female vocals which has now gone, but there is no loss of detail.
Interestingly I used to find MP3 sounded nicer (although more constrained) but this minor adjustment has reversed that.
I don't understand how this small alteration could have made such a big difference. Can anyone more technical than me explain?
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Post by John on Mar 11, 2017 23:13:29 GMT
It sounds like it causing less reading errors for the Naim so you brain is not hearing as much timing issues therefore improving your listening experience
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Post by Stratmangler on Mar 11, 2017 23:49:46 GMT
It's down to licensing. Apple are a shit company to deal with, and expect every company that wants decode and play back their proprietary format (ie ALAC, or Apple Lossless) to pay as license fee, and quite a hefty one at that. Which is a bit rich, because just about all the other audio codecs are out in the public domain. All the other manufacturers have told Apple to go f**k themselves, and each one of them has reverse engineered the Apple codec, but in order for the various players to handle the audio stream it needs to be converted to be FLAC, WAV or whatever their player can handle natively.
Most every player out there handles WAV natively. Same with FLAC. What you have been listening to with your ALAC files is the result of ALAC being read, converted on the fly to a format that can be handled, then read by a player and unpacked and played. What you have now is the stream being read and played. It will be the same with native FLAC files.e
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Post by MartinT on Mar 13, 2017 21:07:46 GMT
WAV are uncompressed representations of the PCM files, so as well as what Chris has said above, WAVs usually represent the least CPU processing requirements but the largest file sizes.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 13, 2017 21:11:03 GMT
Apple are a shit company to deal with You could have stopped after the first five words, but agreed, they love their proprietary formats and are very difficult if anything goes against their we-know-best philosophy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 21:20:26 GMT
Good to know there's an explanation.. I'm very happy it's improved the sound
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 21:23:13 GMT
Apple are a shit company to deal with You could have stopped after the first five words, but agreed, they love their proprietary formats and are very difficult if anything goes against their we-know-best philosophy. It's one of the things I find makes their machines more reliable than some PCs. Although it's also one of the reasons why they are impractical to use on a conventional business network.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 13, 2017 22:31:07 GMT
Agreed!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 13:20:23 GMT
Interesting - I just tried dbpoweramp for the first time - seem to remember @tonyc recommending this to me a while back, I usually use iTunes to import albums. I imported a CD I knew well and find a little over bright (Ed Sheeran - Divide) in WAV format and have just had a listen. Wow is all I can say, the difference between it and the iTunes encoded Applelossless version (played back as WAV via Asset UPnP) and this dbpoweramp version is amazing. It seriously sounds like I have lifted a rather large curtain away from the speakers, but additionally taken a lot of the harshness that used to bother me away. The bass it tighter, the sound stage is wider and possibly deeper, and overall it is a lot sweeter sounding. I don't get it, how can a encoding/importing product make that much difference?
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Post by Stratmangler on Mar 28, 2017 13:49:27 GMT
dBPoweramp does something iTunes does not - dBPoweramp does secure, bit perfect rips, and iTunes doesn't. You need to set dBPoweramp up to perform secure rips, but from there on in it's a piece of cake. Another program that does secure rips is EAC, which again needs setting up properly. The advantage dBPoweramp has over EAC is that it has a much nicer user interface, has a DSP package that integrates well with the ripper, and it also goes about its task a bit quicker. EAC's advantage is that it's free.
I find I get identical results when ripping with dBPoweramp or EAC.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 21:05:18 GMT
Interesting, so the main question is, should I be creating WAV or FLAC files or does it not make any difference?
I have seen the option for secure rips, what does that give you over the default settings?
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Post by Stratmangler on Mar 28, 2017 21:33:58 GMT
FLAC is not a format per se, it's a compression method, and it's lossless. A FLAC file is what you get after applying FLAC compression to a WAV file. FLAC is essentially a container into which a WAV file can be packed. On playback the data is unpacked back to its original WAV format.
There are 2 advantages to using FLAC. The FLAC container is capable of storing metadata - WAV files can carry a file name, but that's it. FLAC traffic on the network requires less bandwidth, because its transmission is within the container, and it's reconstructed by the renderer.
As far as ripping options are concerned, secure ripping will mean that the data will be read at least twice and compared. The disc will be read in blocks, and each block compared - if there are any anomalies the data will be read again, and again if necessary. It all depends on the physical state of the discs. The resultant extracted data is a true reflection of what's on the disc. dBPoweramp will compare the ripped data to any of a number of online databases, comparing checksums and what have you. You'll see comparison numbers for identical track rips.
I rip to FLAC.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 22:20:31 GMT
Thanks for explaining further Strat, interesting regarding the meta data element, when I create in WAVE (WAV?) format, I can add the usual info, i.e. Artist, Album name etc. and assumed that meant I was creating meta data, am I incorrect?. Would you recommend creating FLAC then? Just a little concerned that the sound will reduce... I've been super impressed with the improvemen since moving to WAVE via DbPoweramp as opposed to ALAC and iTunes.
I have set it to secure ripping, which like you said was an easy configuration change, I like the idea of it.
Another question, does DbPoweramp get rid of the breaks (2secs?) between each track, as that's really annoying on some albums.
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Post by Stratmangler on Mar 28, 2017 22:59:32 GMT
Metadata is information separate from the file name. Some (most?) media players require metadata to correctly compile a digital library.
The way my library is organised means I have an album artist, and on each track of an album the album artist is usually repeated, along with any guesting artists. On a library scan the album appears as a whole, under the album artist, and in the guesting artist's folder there will be reference to that guest appearance.
Likewise, on multiple disc sets it's possible to get all discs to play in order, and that too is due to having correct metadata.
To answer your question wrt playback, it's a trivial thing for your renderer to handle FLAC, with negligible processing requirement, and no loss of sound quality. I've only ever heard a difference between WAV and FLAC playback when something has not been set up properly.
The 2 second playback gap is unlikely to originate from ripping. I'd check the setting in your playback control software, and also your player. It might even be that it's a processing delay because there's little or no metadata.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2017 12:14:10 GMT
Thanks Strat, so that is what I shall do, I am going to use FLAC - I certainly prefer the sound to ALAC via iTunes Thanks for all of the guidance, this streaming thing is a lot more complicated that I gave it credit! Paul.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2017 12:15:24 GMT
One final question if I may.
there is a tick box option for 'After Encoding Verify Written Audio' for FLAC, should I have that ticked or not bother?
Many thanks for your help BTW.
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Post by Stratmangler on Mar 29, 2017 13:22:07 GMT
One final question if I may. there is a tick box option for 'After Encoding Verify Written Audio' for FLAC, should I have that ticked or not bother? Many thanks for your help BTW. I've just checked my setup, and it's not ticked. The audio has already been verified during the ripping process. The big thing about streaming is that it pays to do some homework before you start, as it can save you time and effort later on. The approach I take is to set things to operate on as wide a range of players as possible, which saves altering things for specific players. When you posted about using dBPoweramp my initial thought was that you've taken a major step in the right direction - it's great software, and it does what it says on the tin. Something you could set up with your rips is Replaygain - you DO NOT need to bother with Replaygain Apply, as it will irrevocably alter the files. Replaygain is just a set of tags popped into the folder, and although you may not use Replaygain at the moment you may do in the future. It's easier to start as you mean to go on. I use Replaygain on my Squeezebox setup - it stops those heart stopping moments when the next album has a much higher volume level than the previous one. I also do quite a bit of headphone listening, especially late at night, and it saves my lugholes getting a battering. The next bit for you is to get to grips with editing metadata - the online databases are not written by record companies, so there are all sorts of anomalies to be found, what with smelling pistakes and what have you. If the record company has been involved the data is usually worse. I use Mp3Tag for editing metadata, but I'm using a Windoze PC. There will be some kind of editing tool for MacOS.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2017 13:49:25 GMT
Aha, replaygain is mentioned in Asset UPnP and I always wondered how to use it.
Found that you have to configure it in the 'DSP Effects' and have gone with default settings (Gain Calculation EBU R128 -18dB).
Thanks for all of your recommendations, how does it work on a normal CD player then with replaygain? assume it does it as part of the playback?
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Post by Stratmangler on Mar 29, 2017 13:54:40 GMT
A CD player can't handle anything to do with Replaygain (it's incapable of reading the information), so you're left with the low volume/blasting volume scenario. Quite a lot of CDs will be somewhere in between the two volume extremes.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 29, 2017 13:55:28 GMT
As Chris says, be careful of player anomalies. My car unit insists on displaying only the folder name of the album contents in the selection list, no matter that they are under folders for the artist. Therefore I have to name my folders, e.g. Amos, Tori; Little Earthquakes otherwise I get an alpha list of album titles rather than sorted by artist. These little things escalate once you have a sizeable collection (and I do all this only for the car)!
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