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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 18:42:21 GMT
I still haven't reached a view on this, so I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts: Other than price, is there such a thing? In other words, is there such a thing as high end sound?
I haven't had enough kit that would pass as "High End" and I also haven't had a massive room for many years. I also change gear so often and the few items I've had that are regarded as high end, have often been partnered with cheaper items.
I know Jerry has said that his amazing speakers have shown that you don't need mega expensive digital sources or amps to get high end sound. Does this extend to other speakers with realistic scale and dynamics?
My my own thoughts are that the Bryston, Aragon, McIntosh, Krell, Perreaux amps I've owned are significantly better than cheaper ones. But I've also had sensitive speakers which would mean their advantages are lost. Big speakers are fab but I need bigger rooms to really exploit them.
As for sources, I've never got on with cheap CD players or DACs. Naim's CDI and CDX, DPA's PDM2 and Copland's CDA266 have been my best. Not exactly high end though. I've tried most of the popular top British decks but nothing megabucks. I do think expensive decks, arms and cartridges are worth the money, but I've never really reached high end prices to know if there more to be had above say, a 2 grand arm and a £500 cartridge.
Cables? I hear differences but I'm not convinced that the materials costs of any cable should put it in the high end price bracket. I've also heard cheaper cables better dearer ones and I've changed rooms and systems only to find my preferences have been reversed. I tend to view cables in the same way a cook views spices.
So how aboiut it? Does high end sound exist, or can equivalent results be achieved by clever partnering? Do you need a big room to have a chance of high end sound? Is high end possible simply by buying some incredible, large and efficient speakers?
As Insaid at the start, I really haven't got a form idea myself so it will be good to hear various perspectives.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 19:33:47 GMT
Never ever had any interest in so called 'High End'.
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Post by ant on Feb 3, 2017 19:39:49 GMT
Ive never had anything that people would consider high end, and got fed up of constantly trying to upgrade to get 'better' sound. I buggered around so much with cables, racks, accessories, you name it that I completely lost sight of what I was aiming for in the first place
I remember about 10 years ago going back to an old system that had been in various cupboards, wondering what id been playing at for so long, and ended up quite disillusioned with it all.
I then went in a completly different direction and built my own stuff instead.
To me, part of 'high end' is aspiration. I would have loved to have saved up and bought something that was a couple of grand, ( i really really tried to save up for a wadia cd player at one point and never made it) that i would have been proud to have owned. I think there is a fine line between high end and expensive for the sake of it these days, I mean should the linn cd12 really have been twelve grand? But that is the aspirational aspect. The wadia was about 6 grand at the time and I cant see how the linn could have been 6 grand better.
High end is a package. Its the build quality, the materials, the price, the sound quality, although this is not necessarily the most important aspect.
You could have the most beautiful piece of kit in the world stuffed full of the best bits money can buy, but if the designer wasnt up to snuff that might not matter. But the fact that it is stuffed full of choice bits, looks gorgeous and costs as much as a car may be justification enough to say its high end. Luckily, the firms building this kind of thing can attract the best minds
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Post by MikeMusic on Feb 3, 2017 20:30:34 GMT
When I was going through my recent upgrades with Tony we talked about high end. I assumed that the higher the price the better the sound - but- there would be a rapid tail off as the low of diminishing returns kicked in. True but not as I thought it was. This was proved by the kit I played with, Belles and TAD as well as Coherent and Yannis cables. From memory ..... Tony mentioned clients with systems of £250k and up. What difference to say £30k My guess was 5-10% No. About 50% better - ouch. A few years ago I went to a Naim dem. Top end system was about £50k, plus speakers, plus record deck, plus cables  From that I guessed £100k would give you a good and high end system Now I see you can out perform that spending a lot less money. If you have all the money in the world my guess is you spend about £500k |
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Post by MartinT on Feb 3, 2017 20:42:00 GMT
Surely it's about the outcome?
My stab at defining the high end would be achieving a greater insight into the music. It doesn't matter the cost of the system or the format being played. I think a system that reveals far more about the music is more high end. Where's the limit? I don't know, but I wouldn't try defining it by cost.
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2017 20:57:35 GMT
I gues Mike and Martins are the only real High end systems I heard, slightly different outcomes in terms of sound quality Martin seems to enjoy more resolution. It would be nice to hear Martin system in a bigger room as the room was stopping his system from playing at their best in his previous home.
I never heard a really expensive system apart from at shows but that never really cuts the mustard
I like many had to go down a DIY route with a mixiture of pro gear and side ways thinking and now have a very open and dynamic system that just plays music but high end it is not in looks or costs
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2017 20:58:27 GMT
I like your definaion better Martin and fits in with the likes of Speedy Steve and Soverign and what they achieve
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 21:31:50 GMT
Thing is cost has absolutely no bearing on sound quality.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 21:31:55 GMT
I gues Mike and Martins are the only real High end systems I heard, slightly different outcomes in terms of sound quality Martin seems to enjoy more resolution. It would be nice to hear Martin system in a bigger room as the room was stopping his system from playing at their best in his previous home. I never heard a really expensive system apart from at shows but that never really cuts the mustard I like many had to go down a DIY route with a mixiture of pro gear and side ways thinking and now have a very open and dynamic system that just plays music but high end it is not in looks or costs The most expensive system I heard was at the 1992 Penta show. It was a Mark Levinson/Martin Logan setup worth £147k back then. They made a point of telling everyone too! It was large in scale but thin, glassy and not enjoyable. They shut the doors for each dem and within 20 seconds there were 20-30 people queueing to escape. I've since heard a few Levinsom amps. The 1990s models and later ones are all glassy IMO. I've also heard 2 other pairs of Martin Logans. Neither sounded like the ones at the show but they didn't do anything for me either. I guess even when you spend megabucks, personal taste is still a big factor. |
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Post by MartinT on Feb 3, 2017 22:41:43 GMT
The most amazing system I've ever heard used Infinity IRS speakers, but don't ask me which series as I couldn't tell you. I can't remember the amplification either, it was so long ago. Compared with what I have now, it probably lacked some in resolution. But, boy, it had scale and I had never heard such effortless delivery before. Things have moved on since then, but I have always looked for that sense of scale ever since hearing them. It's why small speakers don't really do it for me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 23:19:53 GMT
By far and away the best system I've ever heard was a Voyd Reference, Helius Orion, Goldring Eroica (!), Audio Innovations 500 and Snell J ( all wired together with Audio Note cable in a big room. It goes to show what I said about better amps not being needed with sensitive/easy to drive speakers. No doubting how good that Voyd was though. It had a power, stability and presence I will never forget,
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Post by ChrisB on Feb 3, 2017 23:46:14 GMT
My best system ever was the Beveridge speakers with a Rock/Excaliber/Decca front end. I don't know what the preamp was though. THE most lifelike sound I have ever heard from a stereo. I can't conceive of how I could ever achieve that sound in my home - it was truly captivating.
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Post by ChrisB on Feb 3, 2017 23:52:12 GMT
As to the OP, I think 'the high end' is a silly label.
To non-hifi folks, it's what we used to call a hifi system.
To many of us, it's the hi-fi magazine cliches built into a 19" rack mounted box.
To others of us, it's the apogee of musical reproduction.
To some members of those sub-sets of people, it's those things with generous sprinklings of bling.
It's all relative, man!
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Post by Chris on Feb 4, 2017 4:58:00 GMT
I remember hearing a few hi end systems at shows and being totally underwhelmed and that's really stuck with me. There was a headphone amp and a pair of Sennheisers that came in at 10k - I thought this'll be good but it simply wasn't 10ks worth of good.
Too much bollox in hifi - if you pay attention to what some people say you really can find great combinations of kit for sensible money and that,to me is high end sound.
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Post by John on Feb 4, 2017 5:43:12 GMT
I enjoy a sense of effortless scale to the music and on the whole this is where I tried to push the system.
Like others I heard some very poor high end systems but I come to the conclusion of not judging a system in a room at a show. This is why I do not do shows anymore.
Best system I heard is a DIY system. Just totally effortless with amazing slam
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Post by MartinT on Feb 4, 2017 10:08:13 GMT
The most life like small scale system I ever heard used Horning speakers and big 211 valve amps. Quite stunning for simply recorded music with breath taking micro dynamics.
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Post by MikeMusic on Feb 4, 2017 10:38:13 GMT
Answering Chris...
The main reason I don't go to shows is the sound quality is poor, verging on awful.
Bizarre this is the way the vendors want to sell kit.
They must still be presenting the look and ignoring the sound - or the idiots setting it up do not care
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Post by MartinT on Feb 4, 2017 11:14:55 GMT
Having been to many shows, my overwhelming impression is that hotel rooms do not suit. Saying that, some vendors should be ashamed of their sound.
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Post by pre65 on Feb 4, 2017 13:27:19 GMT
I think "high end" is (or should be) having exquisite sound and build quality.
I once listened to a pair of high end 833a amps. I can't say they sounded any better than my own DIY efforts, but the build quality and design of the casings was superb. Can't comment on the circuit build quality as I could not see inside.
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Post by MartinT on Feb 4, 2017 14:06:00 GMT
But you can have build quality without the sound, like the d'Agostino amps I've heard on a couple of occasions.
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