|
|
Post by welder on Jul 3, 2014 8:29:59 GMT
A few years ago I discovered just how easily my power amplifier went into clipping.
I have in the past believed that with reasonably efficient speakers (about 92db for mine) one would need to play at an uncomfortably loud level to bring on clipping with a reasonably well designed 60 Watt amplifier such as my Exposure. Unfortunately, the measurements said different then and in the room my stereo lives now, which is bigger and constructed completely differently an extra tweak on the loudness is needed to reach my accustom listening level.
There are many ways to avoid clipping, for most though it’s to have lots of Watts available.
Having a bit more time to listen to my stereo and a bit of spare cash I decided make a couple of system changes, a new Dac and some more amplifier power with going active at some point at the back of my mind.
It’s a bit of a tale but a few weeks ago I became the owner of a pair of B&K Sonata M200 monoblocks.
Despite being a decades long Exposure fan I have come to prefer the B&K’s combined with the Benchmark pre amp. Sonically this combo seems to provide better bass control, particularly on the more dynamic recordings and a slightly softer treble which at first I found strange but have now come to like.
Given I paid less than five hundred pounds for 200 Watts per channel and in my system at least a modest increase in what I can only describe as listenability over a generally well regarded Exposure combination (okay, the Benchmark Dac Pre must also contribute) perhaps these B&K’s and possible some of the other American made pro audio muscle amps should receive greater consideration in Hi Fi system building.
|
|
|
|
Post by MikeMusic on Jul 3, 2014 8:40:08 GMT
Don't know B&K
Sounds good to me, especially at the price
|
|
|
|
Post by MartinT on Jul 3, 2014 11:24:33 GMT
Wasn't it Musical Fidelity that issued a power scale of requirements versus speaker efficiency some years ago? Essentially it said that you need a lot more power than you think if you are to reproduce the full peaks in music without clipping. I agree, and think that many systems are run into clipping far more often that the user may realise.
I'm trying to find the article but am failing at the moment.
|
|
|
|
Post by julesd68 on Jul 3, 2014 12:32:12 GMT
Essentially it said that you need a lot more power than you think if you are to reproduce the full peaks in music without clipping. I agree, and think that many systems are run into clipping far more often that the user may realise. That's been the case in my experience, especially when trying to reproduce the full range of something like a good symphony ... No probs now for me - my amp is rated at 120W and makes an excellent partner with the Tannoys ... |
|
|
|
Post by MartinT on Jul 3, 2014 13:04:26 GMT
You'd be surprised, Julian. With my speakers (90dB/W/m), it takes 200W per channel to achieve 110dB peaks at 2m distance (my listening position), a not unreasonable SPL for an orchestral climax. I'm not talking steady state conditions, obviously, but it does mean that my system will not compress peaks as I have adequate power.
However, your average 40-50W amp is never going to achieve that except with horn loaded speakers.
|
|
|
|
Post by MikeMusic on Jul 3, 2014 14:34:26 GMT
Always mazes me that little Chord can drive those monsters
Chord certainly got a lot right
|
|
|
|
Post by MartinT on Jul 3, 2014 14:43:56 GMT
620Wpc into my 4 ohm Ushers  |
|
|
|
Post by MikeMusic on Jul 3, 2014 14:49:21 GMT
Bonkers from such a little box
|
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Jul 3, 2014 15:00:45 GMT
On the subject of Benchmark, I'll be interested to hear the Benchmark AHB2 one day, maybe, given Owen designed it. I know its not what he would do for HiFi, but by all accounts it's an interesting power amp. With a particularly good dynamic range approaching 130db. Not sure I have a spare $2995 right now, but interesting to hear some day.
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Jul 3, 2014 16:23:12 GMT
I use a mixture of both high powered DSP pro amps to power the bass and a Bantam Gold for the mids and treble. I get lots of scale, detail, speed and dynamics. I used to have a big valve power amp but this works better with my speakers
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 17:22:15 GMT
I'm currently using 550 watt monoblocs into a pair of speakers that use the same cone as a Western Electric 4181a which supposedly has an efficiency of 111db and the crossover does not attenuate the coaxial compression driver which probably has a similar efficiency. Needless to say I don't seem to have any headroom issues.  |
|
|
|
Post by welder on Jul 3, 2014 21:01:13 GMT
Well, I was (and still am come to that) slightly embarrassed that it seems I have been listening to a clipping amp more often than I care to think about. However, my discomfort is lessened somewhat in my believe that many audio enthusiasts are doing much the same; kind of strange given for example some enthusiasts swear they can hear a major difference between this cable or that, or this Dac chip or that, but a clipping amp passes unnoticed.  This isn’t just supposition on my part, we tested out a few fellow enthusiasts system at that time and most had a really hard time trying to pick the point of the onset of clipping. Kinda makes one wonder when you look at some systems. So, am I okay with 200 Watts? I’ll find out in a couple of weeks. |
|
|
|
Post by MartinT on Jul 3, 2014 21:06:39 GMT
Needless to say I don't seem to have any headroom issues. I'll bet  |
|
|
|
Post by MartinT on Jul 3, 2014 21:08:21 GMT
So, am I okay with 200 Watts? I’ll find out in a couple of weeks. Unless your speakers are highly inefficient (like Apogee Scintillas), or your room is huge, you should be ok! |
|
|
|
Post by John on Jul 4, 2014 6:55:47 GMT
I used to use B&K plates for my subs. The biggest difference in bass for me was moving to DSP. allowing me to give the bass a lot more punch without the sacrifice of speed
|
|
|
|
Post by MikeMusic on Jul 4, 2014 7:48:59 GMT
Some of the thickos, like me are going to need some more DSP info please John
|
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Jul 4, 2014 7:57:44 GMT
I think the clipping problem probably lies at the heart of Cagey's (Wonky custard???) problems at the moment, which is why I think the Arcam 10P, whilst hardly the finest power amp on the planet, will "fix" the problem enough. How do you post on 2 threads at the same time???  My Quad 405-2, back from the latest round of mod's has the input gain lowered so far now that when using the Integral (or Arcam) the volume knob would be at 12.00, and on the Quad it is round at 4 or even 5 oclock. But as Owen points out, using a conventional 2v rms source, through the Pip 2 passive, could still drive it 2db into clipping even in this configuration. I think a lot of people under-amp!  |
|
|
|
Post by John on Jul 4, 2014 8:08:33 GMT
Hi Mike
I talk more about DSD on my blog
|
|
|
|
Post by MartinT on Jul 4, 2014 8:20:51 GMT
I am confronted with clipping all the time on my PC system, driven as it is with a T-Amp TA-2021 unit. Even with a good linear regulated supply (14V using a Paul Hynes reg), and listening near-field, I can hear it clip all too often. It's going to go once I've decided what to replace it with.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 8:30:46 GMT
|
|
