I liked the 20X2L and found it 'dark' but potent. I would guess the XX2 Mk.II would be another step up the ladder with a similar family sound?

I don't know Martin.  I've not listened to many cartridges in the last 10 years.  I was completely happy with my old Technics U205 till the baby-sitter ripped the (boron) cantilever out.  Since then I have used the Goldring 1042, which I really like, and can always come back to , as although its not "special" it does nothing wrong and is always a cartridge I am happy listening to.

The Technics EPC310 gave that moving coil "space" and added some extension to the bass, and in so many ways was nearly it, but I just found a need to explore beyond.  I think its perhaps best described as a "softness" in the treble.  It is (another boron cantilever) very nearly on the money on everything except that last bit of sheen on cymbals, the ability to distinguish the brushes being swirled on a snare instead of rubbed.  Very hard to put a finger on - very good cartridge, but just left me wondering

The U205 I managed to pick up was good for about 10 hours, and I would swear everything I remember of a good original, and then it began to distort, getting rapidly worse, and it was pretty obvious the suspension was shagged.  Boron cantilever again, but that temperature independant suspension was also always a big thing with those cartridges.  I sourced a boron cantilever, very fancy fine line stylus from Jico in Japan, and thought it was there again.  Space, ease, naturalness, deep bass (not quite up to the moving coil, but pretty damn good) AND - never before - sparkling scintillating treble, and very well controlled surface noise.  A sure winner.  But the longer I listened the more there was a shadow of a doubt about a hint of a suggestion of some "forward" or (sotto voce) "shoutiness" to the mid range.  Still not convinced, I have left the stylus with AK to compare against his original, with no comments to influence him other than "interesting", and I hope to either borrow his, or persuade him to set them up side by side when I am next down there.  (But just out of curiosity and nostalgia - I'm keeping the XX2II forever)

(I loved a Decca London Gold Arthur has, and I heard it in one of his F5 arms - perhaps the best cartridge I have heard in AK's systems since renewing our friendship last year, but I have too many treasured warped records I want to play, and I don't think that's a match made in heaven, so I've not pursued it.  Anyway, that system at the time wasnt imaging well, and it was mostly a love of the speed and rythm)  (At this stage, Arthur was being very coy with his "virgin" - so I didnt get to listen to the XX2II until I borrowed it - I had a 30 minute listen at the factory and decided I had to take him up on his offer)

Jumping sequence a bit, to build to the grand finale, the Ortofon was sourced for the following reasons.  Martin T, who I felt inclined to trust at the time, was extolling the Shelter 5000 and noting its superiority to the Dynavector 20X2L which he described as "dark".  I don't do "dark".  I like "rich, extended and tuneful" when it comes to bass, but I am mostly about airy transparent mid-range, imaging, and instrument space.  So the Shelter sounded good.  Paul at REFFC, who I was also inclined to trust rated it too.  So very very nearly bought one to try then, but still keen to research before weighing out that sort of money.  Paul takes on the Zyx range and starts preferring even the R50 Bloom and definitely the R100 to the Shelter (which he still considers good, but now slightly bettered).  Even making allowances for the fact that he had such an obvious vested interest, this intrigued.  Zebbo on HFS had trialled one of the others on my shortlist (Ortofon Cadenza Black, and opted for Zyx).  Geoff (Walpurgis) who for all his tinitus, shares an appreciation of the Mission 774 tonearm with me had 3 Zyx and rated all with different merits as exceptional cartridges.  Zyx are now centre screen on the radar - but no joy with a try-out via the Funk connection.  And then Geoff announces that he has been playing with a cartridge he wonders is even better in some way than all his Zyx.  Enter the Ortofon MC25FL as the peoples champ.

I'd not heard of the MC25FL, googled to see who stocked it, and found it was vintage and not stocked.  And then, blow me, one pops up - possibly lightly used from a seller on ebay clearing out his deceased step-fathers collection.  Had to be worth a pony to find out.  Got it for less.  Had I heard it before the Dynavector I might have been more impressed.  It has THE most extended bass I have heard.  Now, my system is bass light, its constantly the area to balance out.  The speakers if they have a fault, it is lack of REAL bass, and the turntable and arm are both there because they play to my favourite strength (open, airy, detailed, sweet treble and mid) and suffer the compromise that the bass is tuneful but delicate (and, until September, the stability a bit flaky compared with an SL1200).  So extended bass should be a good thing.  But even in my system this was a bit rich for me.  If you like gut-thumping bass, this is definitely your cartridge.  The rest was as good as you would expect at this class - maybe like the Technics EPC a bit "soft" in the treble, maybe like so many inexpensive MC's a bit "coarse" and "grainy" in the mid, but it didn't really survive long enough for me to form a firm impression.  (Got off to a bad start - Ventricals were perhaps a bit too close to the wall when Sue came in, and the sub-woofer had been left in from the Lowthers.  Once I had corrected both of these (which made it grossly bloated in the bass) I was coming round to the idea that there was a lot of merit in this MC25FL cartridge.  I had spent bloody ages setting it up too, so was reluctant just to change back because madam was sucking her teeth, pulling faces and making her "cricket umpire scoring 4 runs" gesture.  So, back to the Dynavector

Dynavector XX2II reinstalled (no cartridge tags broken this time).  What a cartridge.  Immediately I am treated to a smug "I told you so beam" from the boss, but she needn't have bothered.  Sometimes you just have to man-up, suck in the pain, and admit she was right.  Just so sweet.  Still a LOT of bass, but so controlled, so tight and fast, so tuneful.  Again every instrument sounding like the real thing, and sounding like a real thing, in a real place, and not squished together with the other real things.  That clear swirl of the brushes on the snare, the scintillating detail and treble sweetness, that "bright" was just a wholly inappropriate term for.  That airy transparency - the sense of the cartridge not being there, and the real instruments being there instead.  And that imaging - cue expansive "roll-over boy" gesture from Mrs S in place of the "4 runs" gesture.  By which she means, instead of the sound appearing to be in a thin or thick strip between the speaker drivers, it appears to be in a great arc over and behind (a bit) the speakers.  This cartridge is without doubt the single most exciting source of listening pleasure I can remember.  I don't care if its the best, or others are better, it is absolutely perfect in my PT/FXR/Pip/405/Ventrical setup.  Perfect.  Sublime.  Really really good.  So good, I am going to have to spend money on it.

Returning briefly to your point Martin - the answer is "I don't know, but I think not".  Googling reviews, canvassing opinion on the Wigwam, and talking to AK, I think this is to some extent the jewel in Dynavectors crown, and quite a bit different from similarly named similarly priced offerings.  I have no really useful source of reference for comparison - I listed the ones I have above - but all I read tells me this is the "special one" and everyone who has heard it in my system has the same reaction.  I think I can stop messing about, and settle back to enjoy music. (albeit a little lighter in the wallet)

Is there an audiophile thesaurus available anywhere?

There are terms like 'dark' that I just don't understand in terms of equipment performance. What the hell does it mean? I get in terms of music, maybe menacing or threatening but how can it relate to a cartridge?

Bright I can understand or bass heavy but there is a whole language that I seem to have missed out on.

If you can understand 'bright' - which in my world means an over-emphasis in the upper midrange and lower treble, then 'dark' is the opposite, a dip in the upper mid and lower treble that gives the music a dark presentation.  I found the 20X2L to sound like that, with a very potent bass that gave the frequency spectrum a decided tilt.

Given that explanation, which is not miles from what I assumed, I can answer your earlier question as

"No.  It is not dark, so not like the DV you mention".  The MC25FL would be "dark".  The xx2ii has a very rewarding and appealing bass, but at no point does it overwhelm the mid or treble.  It is particularly striking how just everything from ride cymbal to double bass, passing through vocals, sax, and guitar en route, sounds right, and balanced and real and proportional.

This is really suprising, because I am well aware how subjectively increasing one frequency appears to affect another.  You can watch how lifting the bass frequencies with a graphic equaliser makes the treble sound softer - even though you can look at the response and KNOW the treble response is unchanged.  Somehow, this cartridge puts in bass which was missing, and does it beautifully, and appears to lose absolutely not a thing from anywhere else.  No hardness in the mid.  The clear ringing of the ride cymbal, the swirling of the brushes on the snare (now one of my favourite tests, using that Katie Melua track).

Not dark.  Rich , natural, real and LUVERLY! 


Edit: in my system.  which, as mentioned before, is not "bright" but perhaps "bass shy".  However, not so bass shy, that the Ortofon didn't manage to sound "dark". 

I think it may just be "all relative".  My system has room for some bass extension - so if the DV tends towards that, it becomes a good fit.  Mind - some of the comment on the Wigwam with other systems suggests it performs well across a fair spectrum.

The Ortofon is not bad.  It's very good.  Unlike the Technics with the shagged suspension, there  is nothing "wrong" in the sound.  I suspect if I had tried it first I might have been considering it.  I tracked both the DV and Ortofon at 2 grams.  If I hadnt loved the DV so much, and Sue been so impatient, I might have tried the Ortofon at the extremes of its range (1.8g, 2.2g).  But it is only damned with faint praise, because the DV is so exceptional

I have heard that they run into trouble around 100 hours, and then run through it out the other side (about 150 hours).  Its probably only done 25 hours so far.  Definitely needed 10 to run in (although pretty damn good from new)

We'll see - an awesome synergy maybe? 

Congrats on the DV. Just to add another opinion on the MC25FL - I had one very briefly and found it quite smooth and refined, light and airy in the treble. Don't remember any great bass extension. I didn't hang onto it for long as I found it a bit lacking in drive and dynamics. Wouldn't mind hearing one again though at some point as I have a head-amp to play with instead of the SUT I used back then.

I'll plug the MC25FL back in for more of a listen at some stage.  The sub-woofer I think interefered with first perceptions.  Sue had just walked in and pulled a face, assuming wrongly that I had wired up the Lowthers again - and objecting to the result.  In spite of my efforts to put in a bit of time on the Ortofon, she just wanted a "quick cross check" so I had to put the DV back, by which time it was 10PM and nearing curfew for serious listening levels. The DV rang the bell as soon as it went back in.  It is, IMHO, an exceptional cartridge, so references to aspects the MC25FL don't do quite as well, are not necessarily "problems with the cartridge".

Even though I have it mounted in a spare headshell, unlike a "normal" headshell I have to reset the tracking alignment every swap, and remove the cartridge tags.  And like a proper headshell, I have to set VTA, tracking force and skate.  I think Mrs S thought I could A:B back and forth in a blink of an eye.

So for my own archive, I'll give the MC25FL a more thorough listen at the weekend.  I have few doubts though that I am emptying my wallet for the DV 

Just been responding to an email from Gordon.  Given that I failed to understand that the XX2mk2 and 20X2L were different cartridges until I actually had one it may be worth emphasising they are different.  I have compounded the confusion by referring to Martins "dark" reference, as though it were the same cartridge he was talking about (and at the time I thought that was the case)

They are different cartridges, and so there is a decent chance they sound different.  Broad differences include DV20 has aluminium cantilever a micro ridge stylus and neodymium magnets, and the xx2mkii has boron cantilever, pathfinder line contact stylus, and alnico magnets.  They share the same body and flux damping system.  So, system interactions apart, the DV20 may well be dark whilst the DVxx2mkii might not

Or not?

And I thought Goldrings model range numbering was confusing