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Post by chukka on Mar 10, 2016 19:54:53 GMT
A balanced point of view from Pinch if I may say. With regards to the manufacturers 30 day return policy, whilst I might concur over a set of IC's or similar, It appears to me that the loan scheme enables an individual who might not have the disposable income available to purchase at present , say the TOTL amplifiers and Pre amp, however they may avail themselves of said equipment for a week or so, evaluate, perhaps then to make plans for purchase when affordable. Yes, you're right. I hadn't thought of the expensive stuff, which one should probably not loan in the first place if the cash is not there. Maybe the point I was trying to make was that all this only serves to generate (favourable) reviews for the company. But... any unfavourable review or even opinions not in line with the gospel will be met with a lot of opposition. (You know where to look to find it). So what is the real benefit, or should I say where is the real objectivity in this ? How can you even start trusting the reviews coming from this scheme. I'm not by any means saying the equipment is not up to it, simply saying that this whole thing is doomed to end in discord sooner or later or just fizzle out in a cross-forum shootout. Btw. IMO, if you loan equipment and don't have to lay out hard earned money to acquire it, a positively biased review is more likely. Just my 2 cts. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2016 19:58:59 GMT
The said products would sell much better if the contentiousness around these products where abandoned once and for all. But that won't happen as long as the said person is at the helm. I do think that the loan scheme is a good idea but it is also redundant given that the vendor accepts returns of the goods without charge. So, to me, this is clearly a "marketing strategy" although the term "strategy" is probably a little strong in this context. I don't think that a money back guarantee makes a loan scheme redundant. Well, not for me anyway. I would never have paid to try Cubettes but intended up buying them. Why? Because I've had NVA speakers before and I thought I knew what to expect. I also wasn't looking for more speakers but a free loan sounded fun. Same with the TIS. I thought I knew how much of an improvement an interconnect could make. No way would I have laid £500'plus for one. Now I'm plotting to find a way of affording some without ending up "on too short a leash" or spending a penny more than I need to. I'd love to try other bits, especially cables. I'm genuinely surprised other makers aren't offering such things. In my case, loans are making sales that wouldn't otherwise happen. I can't speak for others but I know I'm not the only one to buy from the loan scheme so I doubt I'm alone. |
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Post by dsjr on Mar 10, 2016 20:08:57 GMT
Would TonyC be interested in offering one or two (sacrificial?) items for loan?
This is all a learning curve for everyone concerned. I mean, the loanee of the Phono2/PSU first stacked them together as nobody (me) asked him not to. He then returned the head unit to me to be changed to MC, which I did and returned, so he could have a personal mini-bake-off at home with all the current fave raves at £500 or so. he decided the MC stage in his integrated amp suited him best - and that's fine, as he tried it and preferred what he had after all  To save messing around with mine, I'll use his returned head unit for a while as I want to listen to the MC30 Super again...
I already suggested, along with Martint here, that perhaps MCRU could provide one or two tempting cables or other units for a loan scheme. No money up front and refunds issued after, just ask the potential loanee to write up a review on their impressions of the products, good AND BAD!
By the way, potential NVA loanees deal with ME, not the company owner and those that know me (Ron?) know me to be a pussy-cat underneath who's generally mild mannered - although I'm getting crabbier as I get older and as my 60th birthday is staring me hard in the face now! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2016 1:08:00 GMT
Let me say up front that I'm not particularly in the market for new gear and with that in mind have no intention of trying a loan of anything offered by anybody given that I have not even a slight intention of buying anything. I have no connection whatsoever with anyone who makes or sells hifi gear nor do I have any (historic or newly acquired) grudge or axe to grind over anyone in the business of doing so.
I have found reading the various threads devoted to the NVA loan scheme fascinating and particularly enjoyed the reviews from those who have taken part. If I was thinking of buying anything (which I'm not) then I would be sorely tempted to put my name down - in fact I think I would owe it to myself to avail of it.
As far as an (albeit new) forum member, it has provided a great insight into 'home grown' products available at relatively affordable prices that are clearly worth considering and (as I said) the insights based on the first hand experience of other forum members rather than professional reviewers or vendors clearly shilling their products. That to me is one of the main benefits of visiting any subject-specific forum and as far as that goes I think it has proven it's merit both for hifi enthusiasts, prospective buyers and for 'vendors' who have the gumption to follow this example and put their products up to user scrutiny without the riggermerole of 'cash up front'.
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Post by John on Mar 11, 2016 5:13:54 GMT
This is what we were hoping to achieve good debate about hifi based on experience rather than reputation without the heavy shill that often goes on. Its a fine a balance one we might not always get right
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 11, 2016 8:04:26 GMT
Taking kit on loan or buying it with a 30 day return is essentially the same.
It just seems *so* different.
Guess the only difference is trusting that the vendor will really, honestly take it back. Also the risk of, say scratching it, what then ?
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Post by ChrisB on Mar 11, 2016 8:15:20 GMT
I disagree Mike.
If you have paid for it, you have mentally invested in it as well as financially. Therefore, whether you consciously accept it or not you are more likely to be biased in favour of it to some extent.
There is also the small matter of having the cash at hand. A loan unit allows people who don't have the necessary funds try something they may want to save up for to buy in at some time in the future.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 11, 2016 10:17:33 GMT
Yes, I agree Chris. Some people may not have the desire (or funds) to actually buy the product on a trial basis. There is far less commitment about loaning a product. They are also more free in their mind to write about it honestly (and I don't mean just negatively, of course).
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Post by AlanS on Mar 11, 2016 10:31:31 GMT
So who is going to be the next vendor and what is going to be offered?
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Post by jazzbones on Mar 11, 2016 11:46:01 GMT
Russ Andrews, much condemned on forums, offers a 60 days money back in a full upfront deal. YES, you do have to pay up front but he guarantees a refund, in writing, if you don't like his product. Now two months is quite a lengthy period to trial a product, try doing that with a new car purchase; so this leads me to this question: 'How long is the dsjr/NVA loan period before the trial product has to be moved on, or before dsjr feels the pressure of having 'his arse kicked (his words)' by the boss man? Also, as I'm given to understand, where are ALL the reviews, positive or negatives? If you don't pay for something you don't really put the same value on the product, ask your kids next time you pay their mobile phone expense or deal out pocket money. You often see a reviewer state, 'I liked the product so much that I bought it', what they don't say is that I paid alot less for it than Joe or Josey Punter is required to. If I had paid a 30 to 40% insider discount on my amps I would would be loving them alot more  .
By the bye, I have nothing to do with RA, apart from being a sometimes customer, and he has on occasions been on the end of a rebuke from me.
He knows I'm a difficult customer.
A loan scheme is a means to and end, ie someone buys your product, hopefully.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 11, 2016 12:49:30 GMT
Just one point, Ron: I did review the NVA BMU and TIS products and so have several other members. The BMU was not for me as my P10 regenerator outperformed it, but the TIS was a superb interconnect so I did buy one. Both products were reviewed positively but I wouldn't have hesitated to write negatively if I didn't think them up to much. My point: I bought the TIS at full list price, so the implication that an 'insider' discount exists is entirely false.
Of course, a forum membership discount is up to the vendor to advertise and I know some vendors have done just this in the past.
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Post by ChrisB on Mar 11, 2016 14:18:11 GMT
Special deals for insiders?
I will happily show anyone the paperwork that proves I paid full price of £500 for the BMU that I bought.
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 11, 2016 14:41:57 GMT
I disagree Mike. If you have paid for it, you have mentally invested in it as well as financially. Therefore, whether you consciously accept it or not you are more likely to be biased in favour of it to some extent. There is also the small matter of having the cash at hand. A loan unit allows people who don't have the necessary funds try something they may want to save up for to buy in at some time in the future. Assuming you have the dough It is the same thing You try it then either buy it or send it on/back and get your dough back It is your mind that tells you it isn't the same |
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Post by dvh on Mar 11, 2016 15:54:00 GMT
By the way, potential NVA loanees deal with ME, not the company owner and those that know me (Ron?) know me to be a pussy-cat underneath who's generally mild mannered - although I'm getting crabbier as I get older and as my 60th birthday is staring me hard in the face now! I think you have demonstrated an almost saintly degree of tolerance and self-control in the face of undeserved criticism from all sides! |
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Post by chukka on Mar 11, 2016 16:04:47 GMT
+1
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Post by Mr Whippy on Mar 11, 2016 16:39:51 GMT
Taking kit on loan or buying it with a 30 day return is essentially the same. It just seems *so* different. Guess the only difference is trusting that the vendor will really, honestly take it back. Also the risk of, say scratching it, what then ? A question of perception, maybe. To my mind the two are quite different. A money-back return gurantee means BUYING an item that I will OWN, but can return if it fails to satisfy, for some reason. Having an item on loan means OWNERSHIP is not MINE - it is BORROWED, ON LOAN and is the property of another and not MINE. I have the use of it for a period of time and then have to return it. I would like to try the BMU. In the spirit of the scheme, I could do so. I could find out for myself what it may/may not do for my system. However, as the cost is more than I can afford, I can't really consider asking for the loan of it. It's a bit like years ago when I wouldn't dream of wasting a dealer's time wanting to listen to gear I might have lusted after but had no way of affording it. Or listening to something and then buying it mail-order. Some might see it as devious matketing ploy by the Dastardly Dickie Dunn waxing his moustache and laughing up his sleeve - metaphorically speaking, of course, and aided by Mutley Dave. I don't really see it as such. |
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Post by chukka on Mar 11, 2016 17:20:06 GMT
Dikkie Dunn is just a very nice guy who wants you to find out for yourself how his kit is. And then he wants you to write a review... BUT if you dont comply 100% and within the set deadline you will have his laywer up your a**. |
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Post by MartinT on Mar 11, 2016 17:25:23 GMT
I'm hearing some quite positive views on the merits of a loan scheme and that's encouraging. For me, I would never have bought the TIS interconnect were it not for the ability to trial it at home.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2016 17:31:22 GMT
I think it is novel and rewarding that Martin and the rest of the leaders here are willing to allow the loan scheme offered by NVA despite the amount of hassle it could and has likely brought them. It shows to me that they are looking out for their forum members as a priority, it is also nice to be able to be entirely honest in reviews of said equipment.
Also it is quite brave of RD to offer the scheme considering some individuals personal opinions of him.
I just wish further manufacturers would considering offering something similar, as I'm sure TAS would be more than happy to add them to the fold.
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Post by ChrisB on Mar 11, 2016 19:14:16 GMT
How can you even start trusting the reviews coming from this scheme. I'm not by any means saying the equipment is not up to it, simply saying that this whole thing is doomed to end in discord sooner or later or just fizzle out in a cross-forum shootout. I'm not sure what you mean here. Firstly, what does your mistrust of the reviews have to do with your expectation that it will all end in tears? Secondly, can I ask why you don't trust them? I mean, who do you think is telling untruths and why might they be doing so? For example, with the BMU - do you mistrust me, who bought one after trying it? ......or Martin, who didn't? In the case of the cable, who is telling porkies: Martin, who bought one? ......or Andrew, who didn't? Does someone have to be misrepresenting the truth or did people just have different systems, needs and experiences? |
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To save messing around with mine, I'll use his returned head unit for a while as I want to listen to the MC30 Super again...
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