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Post by John on Oct 22, 2015 18:26:21 GMT
I missed the whole flat earth promotion in the 80s for better or worse and it always amazes the strong reactions both good and bad this causes. Not quite as bad as mains cables but it in the same ball park.
I have my own thoughts on the subject
I tend to trust my ears but I will look and try to understand measurements as much as I can. Ultimately however its my money so in the end I trust my own ears within the context of my own system and my own musical bias.
Lets take source first. The principle is to get this right and then build your system around this. For me speakers and room acoustics have a really big say in the sound. Whilst may speakers share a similar sense of scale as Matins and SpeedySteve its presentation is different. (not better....just different) as they are different to each other too. I would imagine someone like Jerry system to be just as different again.
I also believe digital as medium costs have on the whole cost to performance ratios have really changed. Decent Dacs like the Caiman DDAC and Cunas offer great value for money. Connect a Raspberry Pi or a PC and it possible to get pretty decent sounds. Within PC audio the SQ changes weekly (and this is just software) there plenty of stuff you can do to power supplies etc. For instance my front end if just digital is about 8 to 10% the cost of my system. Analogue is a whole different ball game and to if you want to push the boat out in terms of SQ there is no escaping spending lots of money.
I see system building as everything is important view point. I would advice hear as many approaches as you can before spending money.
Another theme is PRAT Pace Rhythm Attack and Timing. For me this is focusing on the beat of the music and the energy it produces. For me whilst my system does PRAT well its not the bit that I focus on. Yes I want to feel kick drums, but I also want to hear micro dynamics, great soundstage, clean articulate bass. I tink this has changed the most in my system. In the past my system just rocked preety hard, now it does other musical styles like Jazz well.
What are you thoughts on getting the best sound you can
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Post by ChrisB on Oct 22, 2015 20:56:51 GMT
I think it might be interesting to hear what people think is meant by the term 'Flat Earth' in hi-fi terms. I wonder if we can all agree on that?!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 21:33:18 GMT
Definitely an interesting thread and observations. The flat earth was my hifi heyday and I am still influenced by it today. The Sound Org was an icon to me as a lad and I still love some of the products of the day from there: Exposure amps, the Xerxes, Es14s, Isobariks, SBLs etc.
I still largely believe in source first, although there can be other ways that work. The kit of that day is still very attractive to me, although not just flat earth. Some of the Absolute Sounds kit of that era also draws me in.
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Post by Stratmangler on Oct 22, 2015 21:41:25 GMT
My take is that no matter how well a system resolves in terms of tonal accuracy, if it doesn't engage me from a rhythmical perspective then it's broken.
I'd rather listen to something rhythmically adept and tonally coloured, as at least then I would find some connection to the music.
For me timing is key.
The Flat Earth arguments passed me by at the time - I was too busy going out and seeing bands playing live.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 21:47:15 GMT
My take is that no matter how well a system resolves in terms of tonal accuracy, if it doesn't engage me from a rhythmical perspective then it's broken. I'd rather listen to something rhythmically adept and tonally coloured, as at least then I would find some connection to the music. For me timing is key. The Flat Earth arguments passed me by at the time - I was too busy going out and seeing bands playing live. I completely agree. If a system isn't right rhythmically, it just doesn't do it for me. |
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Post by John on Oct 23, 2015 4:19:42 GMT
I would possibly consider myself more a mid man myself Get stuff like guitars both acoustic and electric right and I can enjoy music on any system. For me getting the bass right seems to help with the rest of the system if the bass overhangs if effects the sound in the mid and treble I like to hear a system swing a few years ago it was more about the impact
For me the biggest danger in the approach was the strict rules people seemed too have held
Like Chris back in the time of Flat earth I was to busy going to concerts and having fun when it was popular in the press
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2015 5:50:59 GMT
Flat earth a concept invented by naim and to some extent linn as a tool to capitalise on each other equipment's sonic traits at the time to produce more sales by deviising an ethos to which middle class and Freemasons could aspire to owning their equipment The infamous tune dem is farcial at best. Rhythmic nature of music is just that produced by the artist with timing both in a rock / pop manner and a classical manner is a system cannot produce this it is not flawed but merely has a different take and would be ridiculed by the above dealer network for not having do. Rather than an artificially created one. Conversely if it showed that rat a tat in yer face eventuated upper mid bass bias to induce toe tapping it was considered God like music making  Even at the expense of preserving your hearing thr musical truth is somewhere between the two flat at earth marketing concept from a bygone earth that has stuck with many a person until there mid forties when they realise there is more to music than manufactured pace rhythm and timing imho |
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Post by ChrisB on Oct 23, 2015 6:22:23 GMT
Ha!
I love the way the term used to be used in a derogatory sense and now it's a badge of honour worn with pride by some.
I was only subjected to a tune dem on one occasion and I found it intensely patronising. That particular shopkeeper never got a penny of my money but he seemed to do very well out of the many people who seemed to swallow it.
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Post by John on Oct 23, 2015 6:45:54 GMT
I was subjected to a dem where the sales man started tapping his feet only when he put new gear. It was quite subtle what he was doing but it lost him the sale.
Finding your own personal balances strikes me as the way to go with system building
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ynwan
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Post by ynwan on Oct 23, 2015 6:58:53 GMT
PRaT stands for Pace Rhythm and Timing rather than Pace Rhythm Attack and Timing (though that is also good and attack was certainly a core quality considered).
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Post by Stratmangler on Oct 23, 2015 7:18:21 GMT
I have been hugely unimpressed by a Manchester based Linn dealer's efforts every time I've encountered them at shows, not that I attend many.
Last time I lasted 20 seconds before I decided to leave. It just sounded awful. Worse than ever before.
My cheap and cheerful Richer Sounds system that I had from the mid '80s to the mid '90s sounded far more musical and involving.
I was even less impressed with an Absolute Sounds demo at Whittlebury.
It wasn't the music, and it wasn't the sound that drove me out of the room - it was the patronising attitude of the guy conducting the demonstration, and his efforts to try and tell a room full of people how to listen to music.
And if I remember correctly, he never let the music speak for itself either - the music would be put on and played for a couple of minutes, and then stopped to allow him to blather on with his inane sales pitch.
I don't enjoy being patronised, so I left.
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Post by Stratmangler on Oct 23, 2015 9:13:10 GMT
PRaT stands for Pace Rhythm and Timing rather than Pace Rhythm Attack and Timing (though that is also good and attack was certainly a core quality considered). I think PRAT could also be used to describe the sales people in some of the dealership horror stories  |
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Post by zippy on Oct 23, 2015 9:54:25 GMT
It's easy for me - If I find I'm sitting absolutely still when listening then it's a bad system !
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Post by julesd68 on Oct 23, 2015 10:31:29 GMT
So apart from 'source first' and PRAT, is there anything else that makes up the Flat Earth concept??
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Post by Stratmangler on Oct 23, 2015 10:32:53 GMT
It's easy for me - If I find I'm sitting absolutely still when listening then it's a bad system ! That's an excellent and straightforward way of putting things, and I agree wholeheartedly with you  |
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Post by jandl100 on Oct 23, 2015 10:49:35 GMT
It's easy for me - If I find I'm sitting absolutely still when listening then it's a bad system ! Sometimes, sometimes not. When I am really involved in and entranced by the music I am often absolutely rock-steady still, so as to hear every nuance of the playing. I am and always have been totally opposed to the Flat Earth ethos - a vile distortion of the music, imho, made to sound impressive to the impressionable. There! - that told ya!  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2015 11:32:17 GMT
Never did all that mumbo jumbo anyway
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ynwan
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Post by ynwan on Oct 23, 2015 11:34:24 GMT
Yep, not all music is intended to make you dance and a system that presents it in that way is doing something very odd.
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The so called 'Flat Earth' ethos was simply to concentrate on the rhythmic structure of the music over the specific tone of instruments or recoded artefacts like soundstage. At the time vinyl was the primary source and the 'source first' was the logical corollary to the 'follow the rhythm' ethos of the 'Flat Earth' dictum. The arrival of CD slightly altered that - not so much at first because the more expensive designs were obviously better than the cheaper ones - but as time passed the performance of CD players coalesced to a similarly competent, though somewhat mediocre, mean almost irrespective of price.
The problem with the 'Flat Earth' wasn't so much the theory but the tools with which it was implemented and, in some cases, the dealers that sold those tools. Whilst many of the (predominantly but by no means exclusively) Linn/Naim systems sold did have strong abilities to communicate rhythm and timing it was often at the expense of quite severe tonal aberrations and, even worse, a highly uneven frequency response tended to artificially lift the presence of mid bass lines - on some music this was most compelling (bass guitar lead) but some other music was rendered almost unlistenable.
Yes some dealers applied sales tactics more in line with cult doctrinarian but they still exist - one in particular still dances along to the music and tells you the opinion he thinks you should hold and says things like "if you can't hear that difference you must be deaf" or "you don't even deserve to own a hi-fi" (both of these are actual quotes). Once upon a time they were Linn/Naim dealers but now they sell very different 'Round Earth' gear - the fact that they are nutters has nothing to do with the Flat Earth.
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Post by Stratmangler on Oct 23, 2015 11:45:22 GMT
It goes without saying. Not all music is rhythmically driven. For stuff that is (rhythmically driven) my left foot is a good "pleasurometer", and it has a life of its own |
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Post by julesd68 on Oct 23, 2015 18:06:47 GMT
I remember back in the 80's I was working in a pub and the owner proudly demoed me his Linn Axis / Nait 1 / Linn Index system... Even as a youngster back then, I knew that style of presentation wasn't for me - 'bright' wouldn't begin to describe it... Funny how things like that can make such an impression on you...
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Even at the expense of preserving your hearing
