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Post by AlanS on Jul 15, 2015 9:00:46 GMT
MODERATION: Post deleted. I see but other posts are left with a don't be naughty. The Ignore button remains. |
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Post by dvh on Jul 15, 2015 9:57:57 GMT
I've realised what "irked" me on this. And why I felt this was not just classicrock posting. And it is what is so depressing and tiresome about HiFi forums The gratuitous negativity, defensiveness, and need to "run down" Nobody has been saying "this is the worlds best amplifier" or "you must have one". It is a project a friend has been working on for a few years as a design engineer consultant. He's worked on others before, and is working on new ones now. But it was different , and news worthy in the wider press benchmark amp launch. And I thought of interest to this forum and people interested in HiFi. It was an example of new technologies, new design ideas, and although expected to be a pro market item, is fast making inroads into HiFi for reasons which became pretty bloody obvious to me this weekend, when I finally had it running properly. Now, I was about to say, as I have elsewhere, "I could understand ... criticisms". But actually - why? What's wrong with "How interesting" "Fair play" "what's special, and how does it work?" Why the need to start saying what's wrong with it? Unless you have personal reasons to be defensive about anybody designing anything new or clever, especially an amplifier. Why the need for any negativity in a thread about a news worthy new product, which I happen to have seen in bits while it was being developed a few times? Why bother with forums? Only you can answer that question, bearing in mind Einstein's definition of insanity. Personally, I find the answer is not to take things too seriously. Most people on forums have agendas, either within or outside their awareness, so the chance of finding someone with a genuinely open mind is slim. Most will have made purchasing choices, possibly quite expensive ones, and will be a) defensive of those choices and b) unreceptive to the possibility that there's something (much) better out there. So, other than people just expressing polite interest, your target audience comprises people who: 1) Are looking for a new power amp 2) Aren't already committed to a different approach, e.g. valves 3) Have £3,000 to spare 4) Regard £3,000 as good VFM in this context or 5) Genuinely understand the innovatory nature of this amp and have the technical understanding to discuss its merits. |
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Post by pinkie on Jul 15, 2015 11:17:44 GMT
I've realised what "irked" me on this. And why I felt this was not just classicrock posting. And it is what is so depressing and tiresome about HiFi forums The gratuitous negativity, defensiveness, and need to "run down" Nobody has been saying "this is the worlds best amplifier" or "you must have one". It is a project a friend has been working on for a few years as a design engineer consultant. He's worked on others before, and is working on new ones now. But it was different , and news worthy in the wider press benchmark amp launch. And I thought of interest to this forum and people interested in HiFi. It was an example of new technologies, new design ideas, and although expected to be a pro market item, is fast making inroads into HiFi for reasons which became pretty bloody obvious to me this weekend, when I finally had it running properly. Now, I was about to say, as I have elsewhere, "I could understand ... criticisms". But actually - why? What's wrong with "How interesting" "Fair play" "what's special, and how does it work?" Why the need to start saying what's wrong with it? Unless you have personal reasons to be defensive about anybody designing anything new or clever, especially an amplifier. Why the need for any negativity in a thread about a news worthy new product, which I happen to have seen in bits while it was being developed a few times? Why bother with forums? Only you can answer that question, bearing in mind Einstein's definition of insanity. Personally, I find the answer is not to take things too seriously. Most people on forums have agendas, either within or outside their awareness, so the chance of finding someone with a genuinely open mind is slim. Most will have made purchasing choices, possibly quite expensive ones, and will be a) defensive of those choices and b) unreceptive to the possibility that there's something (much) better out there. So, other than people just expressing polite interest, your target audience comprises people who: 1) Are looking for a new power amp 2) Aren't already committed to a different approach, e.g. valves 3) Have £3,000 to spare 4) Regard £3,000 as good VFM in this context or 5) Genuinely understand the innovatory nature of this amp and have the technical understanding to discuss its merits. I think that's a really good response, and thank you for that. I remain disappointed at the negativity - and I'm not sure I had a "target market" - but I understand what you meant, and appreciate the thoughts. I read on Bloomberg recently about a new artificial limb which has "feedback" to the normal nerves. The user can tap his artificial foot in time to music as naturally as a real foot - without needing to learn to do it. Fortunately I currently have both legs in more or less full working order (badly sprained an ankle playing tennis 4 weeks ago). Nonetheless, although having no need for an artificial limb myself - I found it a fascinating 6 minute video. An article on synthetic corneas made from collagen was of much more direct interest, since my 2nd graft is "decompensating" (medical for dieing) I didn't need a target audience to positively respond necessarily - just, if you were "out of the market" to avoid feeling a need to gratuitously "diss" in the manner Classicrock apparantly felt the need. |
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Post by ChrisB on Jul 15, 2015 14:00:44 GMT
MODERATION: Post deleted. I see but other posts are left with a don't be naughty. The Ignore button remains. You know that your post was a personal attack on another member and no more. For that, it breaks one of our few rules. Apart from that, it had not one single on-topic syllable within it. If you can convince me that somehow it made a positive contribution to a discussion about an amplifier, then I will restore it. |
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Post by pinkie on Jul 15, 2015 15:06:35 GMT
Is there an ignore button? I can't find it  |
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Post by dvh on Jul 15, 2015 15:14:36 GMT
Is there an ignore button? I can't find it You need to click on the user name; one of the drop-down options on the cogwheel sign in the right-hand corner is 'Block'. |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 15, 2015 22:39:51 GMT
To answer dvh, I find that having an agenda counters any attempt to better SQ. Maybe that's a root cause with some listeners? Unless you remain truly receptive to new ideas, then you're going to be stuck along a path that may not offer what you need. For example, the number of Naim devotees who narrow their upgrade path to the next model up the chain.
I also don't agree with being 'committed to a different approach, e.g. valves'. Surely you should listen to a variety of solutions and select the one which sounds best to you? I have made it my goal to listen to valves, class D etc., even though I haven't chosen them. That's the only way I can continuously assess what's out there.
A closed mind only affects you in the long run.
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Post by dvh on Jul 15, 2015 23:26:54 GMT
To answer dvh, I find that having an agenda counters any attempt to better SQ. Maybe that's a root cause with some listeners? Unless you remain truly receptive to new ideas, then you're going to be stuck along a path that may not offer what you need. For example, the number of Naim devotees who narrow their upgrade path to the next model up the chain. I also don't agree with being 'committed to a different approach, e.g. valves'. Surely you should listen to a variety of solutions and select the one which sounds best to you? I have made it my goal to listen to valves, class D etc., even though I haven't chosen them. That's the only way I can continuously assess what's out there. A closed mind only affects you in the long run. Well, yes. I was trying to be honest with myself and the forum; I like to think I'm open-minded, but I'm aware that some of my own preference might colour my responses to others' views. For example, pinkie's comments about the Benchmark's specs caused me to mention the Devialet; had I not bought a Devialet I wouldn't have felt the need to respond (nor would I have had the relevant information at my fingertips). The 'committed to a different approach' thing is surely very common? Yes, ideally one listens to various options/solutions and select the best, but in reality most people are unable psychologically to admit to have been going along the wrong road for several years, especially if they've spent shedloads of money along the way, so they close their ears to alternatives. Personally I've used valves, solid state and Class D along the way, but am unsure whether that's because I'm open-minded or because I'm an indecisive fence-sitter. |
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Post by ChrisB on Jul 16, 2015 4:47:33 GMT
This stubbornness to accept you have been wrong can lead to the endless cycle of 'upgrading'. How many times do you hear about the wrong part of a system being changed because someone feels they have to keep the very item that makes it fail musically (usually because it got a rave review by What Hifi!).
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Post by MartinT on Jul 16, 2015 5:53:47 GMT
For example, pinkie's comments about the Benchmark's specs caused me to mention the Devialet; had I not bought a Devialet I wouldn't have felt the need to respond (nor would I have had the relevant information at my fingertips). You bought a Devialet because you were open-minded enough to listen to it - good for you! I know there is some criticism of it, mostly by people who can't get their head around the operation of class D amps and so relegate it to the 'overpriced crap' pile in their heads. Their loss. I get the same with the Chord being 'bling' and having a switched-mode power supply, so it must be crap? If I count the number of times I've heard this utter cobblers from opinionated dicks who have never properly listened to one, it would be a big number. Yet I go home every evening to listen to stunningly musical playback. Their loss. It has remained in my system for 13 years because nothing else has ousted it - but I'm tempted to try the Benchmark, just to hear if it can.
I'd like to see a change in listeners being truly open-minded in their evaluation of equipment. Go to hi-fi shows and walk into rooms that seem to have nothing of interest - sometimes you can be bowled over. It happened to me a couple of years ago when I heard Linn Kans driven by a Naim amp sounding surprisingly good. I have never ever heard Kans sounding good before, but that readjusted my opinion of what's possible with them, and of Naim.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 16, 2015 6:06:26 GMT
This stubbornness to accept you have been wrong can lead to the endless cycle of 'upgrading'. How many times do you hear about the wrong part of a system being changed because someone feels they have to keep the very item that makes it fail musically (usually because it got a rave review by What Hifi!). I've done it myself, Chris, and I learned my lesson a long time ago. However, never on the basis of a WHF review! |
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Post by pinkie on Jul 16, 2015 7:19:02 GMT
I also don't agree with being 'committed to a different approach, e.g. valves'. Surely you should listen to a variety of solutions and select the one which sounds best to you? I have made it my goal to listen to valves, class D etc., even though I haven't chosen them. That's the only way I can continuously assess what's out there. A closed mind only affects you in the long run. I recall asking Owen why the Pip sounded like a valve preamp. It sounded much more like the SP8 we had at the time, than the Quad 44, or the Naim amps, or other SS amps I now forget. His answer was that the sound depended on the way the circuit functioned not the components it was made of. It comes down to how you make the electrons behave. I rather like a quote from an article about grounding electronic devices, with regard to the valves / class A / class D adherents and opponents "electrons don't care, and they don't read schematics".  |
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Jul 16, 2015 8:21:31 GMT
Nick repeats something similar on a regular basis.
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Post by pinkie on Jul 23, 2015 8:15:00 GMT
I was about to post this in the dialogue on Sovereigns SECA thread, and then felt it was a drift too far I've just installed the Benchmark properly - I don't mean "HiFi" - I mean "Wife properly". Neatly on the shelf, cables hidden, redundant Pip 1 , Quad 405-2, spare cables including croc clips removed and the plywood back to hide the rising cables - cos we have an estate agent coming out to value the house today, and I was getting serious earache for the mess I'd made. I wish it was mine. Not just cos its lovely and would fit very nicely into my system. But because I'm paranoid about scratching the bloody thing. It arrived pristine, still in its box. It needs to go back that way  |
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Post by pinkie on Aug 8, 2015 14:12:57 GMT
Golf clubs cost about the same amount less in the USA than in the UK, but that is the reality of export markets. So do clothes. Have you shopped for Levi's in the USA? As for equalled specs, whilst I have no direct knowledge of them, I understand the Devialets also to be excellent sounding amplifiers. But not cheap. I think their equivalent power amp is about £9000. Not so. Devialet don't 'do' power amps, as such. Their products combine pre-amp, power amp, phono amp and streamer in the one box, the equivalent to the Benchmark in terms of output being the 120 wpc model at £3990. |
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Post by dvh on Aug 11, 2015 10:27:41 GMT
Not so. Devialet don't 'do' power amps, as such. Their products combine pre-amp, power amp, phono amp and streamer in the one box, the equivalent to the Benchmark in terms of output being the 120 wpc model at £3990. Yes, that model incorporates a dual mono 400 watt power amp, with a preamp, DAC, phono amp and streamer built in. The Devialet range starts with the D120 at £3990. That model also includes preamp, DAC and streamer. As to whether the Devialet sounds better than the Benchmark, I've no idea, but the specs are almost identical. |
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