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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2015 18:07:21 GMT
There have been a few interesting posts in other threads lately that have touched on mains/fuses/foo/subjectivism. I figured it might help to have a more recent mains-oriented thread for this to play out. I'm still interested in the subject, both from a technical,and a subjective standpoint. I'm sure I can only learn from the debate and I hope it gives an opportunity tor others to do so too. My own experience is somewhat mixed. In a former life......well..... house, area and system, I was avid mains cable dabbler. Not only was I sure I could hear very real differences between standard and "quality" mains cables, I could also hear differences between the many expensive cables I owned. This was an all-Naim system and a modern house although I have no idea if either is significant. Jump forward about ten years and I'm in a new house, different location and my system has changed almost weekly over the period. Recently I wired in a basic cable out of laziness and didn't really hear a difference. I didn't long for the expensive cable back and in time I decided to try taking out the others. I heard no loss of anything. I sold all my mains cables and made a few hundred quid with no apparent loss of quality. I don't know quite what to make of the whole thing. Was I deluded ten years ago? I doubt it but I'm still open to the idea. Is it the house, the system or my hearing/perception of music? I have no idea but my money would probably be on the last one. Again, I'm open to any of them. As for mains fuses, I was given one of those solid bars that are gold plated and supposedly replace a fuse in the chain. I went to try it a while back and can't find the bloody thing anywhere. I haven't tried posh mains fuses and probably won't spend significant sums on them, but I would like to experiment with reducing the number of fuses at some future stage (I use a multi block) What about hard-wiring vs IEC vs Bulgin vs whatever? You don't see it discussed as much, but should it be? Again I have no entrenched view and would welcome both technical,and subjective opinion. As for mans conditioners, balanced mains etc, I probably won't go there. Ugly boxes and wires would spoil my enjoyment simply by defiling my living space Good to hear other people's experiences though. Before I shut up, may I also ask about contact cleaners where mains is concerned. Do they work? Is Duraglit as good as it gets or do I need to buy that stuff NASA seem to have taken a liking to? OK I'm done typing, so hopefully anyone still awake might fancy posting
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Post by John on Jun 23, 2015 19:00:17 GMT
I think mains very from area to area in my experience One of the best upgrades was a complete re-wire to the house as the sparky advised this due to safety reasons. After this I no longer needed a balanced mains unit in my system. I also had the earth re-bonded at the same time. I would suggest a good starting point with regards to evaluation is sell or return deals. Hear the benefits or not for yourself before fully committing One of my friends have gone of the grid as much as possible. He is very much about keeping the signal as simple and clean as possible.
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Post by brian2957 on Jun 23, 2015 20:26:41 GMT
Yup , one of the troops up here runs his system from a couple of 12V car batteries . Keeps them in his cellar . Sounds excellent .
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Post by pinkie on Jun 23, 2015 20:33:07 GMT
Andrew Thanks for starting this. I'll come out to play just as soon as I'm back on a proper keyboard. (and people accuse me of long posts )
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2015 20:45:26 GMT
Andrew Thanks for starting this. I'll come out to play just as soon as I'm back on a proper keyboard. (and people accuse me of long posts ) I always enjoy your posts so maybe emulation is indeed the sincerest form of flattery
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Post by Sovereign on Jun 23, 2015 22:00:22 GMT
Andrew Thanks for starting this. I'll come out to play just as soon as I'm back on a proper keyboard. (and people accuse me of long posts ) Wow, miracles really do happen
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Post by Sovereign on Jun 23, 2015 22:03:02 GMT
There is an awful lot I could say here but it's 23:00, I'm 2 glasses of red into a good hifi session with Christian McBride. I'll comment tomorrow. The absolute most important thing is you seem to not care, which I think I s healthy. Enjoy the music at all costs, worry about the hifi later
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Post by pinkie on Jun 24, 2015 7:58:32 GMT
OK Singularity. Here goes First - I would mostly like to talk about my hum and buzzes over the years and how mains as a source of noise can affect HiFi and music listened to at home, rather than go round the circular arguments about "foo, fairies and expectation bias". But - lets get it out of the way and talk about your delusions of hearing differences in mains cables The problem here is the pejorative implication of "delusion". The problem also applies to "foo". One mans shorthand can mean something different to another - and language is context sensitive . Just look at how "spastic" has morphed into "special" (as in "special needs" ) in the playground, and "excellent" has become "sick". So lets assume nobody is calling names in the playground on this thread and accept some friendly abbreviations. I have no doubt you heard a difference with those mains cables. What is less certain is why. Was it a change in the electrical signal changing the speaker cone movement which changed the air pressure sound waves which moved your eardrum? Or was it some of the other factors which are important to hearing (like vision, mood/ state of mind, "expectation")? And if it was the electrical signal version - was that due to the mains electricity arriving at station in super pure form to do its job extra well? Or was it a reduction in the contamination that mains caused to the signal through for example not radiating as much electromagnetic interference into the signal cables? I was first interested in a foo mains cable for that reason. My old hum problem on the AV input. Owen had advised ensuring mains cables did not run parallel with signal cables. I just cannot completely avoid that at the moment on that input. (Newsflash - we have offered on a house in France and are proceeding with the sale. Owens' first question before coming to visit this weekend, when I told him was "are you going to set your HiFi up properly in your new house then?" Meaning keep mains cables away from signal cables!). However, for reasons I forget, but will ask again this weekend (I think to do with wavelengths) his response was better to shield the signal cable rather than the mains cable. Better note - not utterly completely irrelevant. Better. But his view was don't bother with mains cable shielding - and although I disregarded him and tried some shielded mains cables anyway, they made sweet FA difference. Back to Andrews delusions. Hearing - for all of us - is a multi-sensory experience. Others have posted the McGurk effect, but I can repeat it if asked by those who haven't seen it. Let's be clear - when I see his lips move differently IT SOUNDS different. It doesn't "multi-sensory experience" different. I hear him say "faa" and not "baa" . It's the old "brain is a complex organ" thing again - and none of us can pure "hear" with our ears. It's a bit like stage magic - we know the lady isn't sawn in half, and the signed card was in the orange all the time, but done well the illusion is reality. Our brain routinely processes according to its expectations - it's world view. If you want to be SURE that what you HEAR is due ONLY to your EARS - do a double blind listening test where as far as possible other potential "experiences" are eliminated. Otherwise - you have a multi-sensory experience and maybe you are "hearing" sound pressure waves and maybe you are "hearing" other sensory experiences. To put another spin on Jez's statements about "impossible". HiFi - stereo - is itself a big illusion. It is very clear to me over the years that not everyone experiences the same from their HiFi. I "buy in" to the stereo illusion easily and eagerly. I get a big, and with good kit, very precise soundstage, and getting that (fake) "realism" is a big part of the enjoyment of listening to music on "good" hifi for me. And its a pain in the arse. My systems are really giant headphones, where there is just one listening sweet spot which I sit in, or force my victims into (I think to date, James "Sovereign" is the only forum member to have had this inflicted on him). This is a ballache at parties - for which my speakers are at best ordinary, and I would rather have the lowthers or even Mikes Isobariks. Anyway - for me the illusion works really well. I enjoy the idea that the violin is in a precise place I could reach out and touch. I enjoy it more with my eyes shut when the sound stage expands beyond the walls of the room (with eyes open, my multi-sensory rationality forces the sound between the speakers). The illusion is that the plant pot 2/3 of the way between the speakers is the source of the violin sound. THAT IS WHAT I HEAR. However, really the sound doesnt come from anywhere in that strip at all - it is "impossible" for it to come from the plant pot - I know because of physics and the laws of the universe that it ACTUALLY comes from the speaker panels. But that is NOT what i hear. My stepson first heard this in our current set up, where between the speakers is the large screen TV AND THE CENTRE CHANNEL SPEAKER. He was absolutely convinced that the sound was coming from that centre speaker box too and simply would not believe me that it wasn't plugged in when he is listening to an Adele LP. (He comes from a school where 70% of the students "know" that the moon landings were faked in a Hollywood studio. I suspect Jez struggles not to emulate Neil Armstrongs response on being asked if the moon landings are faked - legend has it he punches people) So "delusion" - or multi-sensory reality? Who knows. To be sure that it was sound pressure waves only (which is what most people mistakenly think is the "hearing" experience) can only be determined with properly controlled measuring equipment. Proper blind testing using ears as the only sensory input counts as measuring equipment. Does it matter? - No. Not to us as music lovers. It used to matter to me when I ran a Hifi company because we needed a scientific approach to product development to ensure we were making real changes - that should have universal application. Domestically we are in it to enjoy the music, so if popping a fuse in makes the music better for you, but not for me, why worry about which science offers the right explanation? But if you WANT to talk science, don't turn it into Harry Potter. The laws of physics means the sound from an LP comes out of the Quad electrostatics on an LP and not the centre channel speaker in my system - regardless of what Harry (my stepson) hears.
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Post by pinkie on Jun 24, 2015 8:10:50 GMT
Yup , one of the troops up here runs his system from a couple of 12V car batteries . Keeps them in his cellar . Sounds excellent . That is assuredly true. And batteries provide a great solution to the "juice" running the engine. They do nothing for electromagnetic shielding (although of course even that is not true, since batteries are likely to eliminate the existence of ground loops). But much of the quality improvement from batteries (all of the "juice for the engine" benefit) is to do with how well the power supply converts wiggly AC into ruler flat DC, and nothing to do with the size or shape of the wiggles on the AC. There is no causal relationships between mains varying from place to place, and batteries making equipment sound better. But both statements are true. And even batteries are not ideal power supplies. A good power supply is at the heart of optimal audio equipment in my view. That is not the same as saying mains products will improve a power supply.
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Post by Sovereign on Jun 24, 2015 12:06:23 GMT
Yes I can confirm Richard system sounds lovely, doesn't sound hi-fi or forced it just sounds natural, the music washes straight across the room as if the speakers aren't there. Richard have you ever thought of being a columnist for a newspaper? A post like that would go well in a broadsheet.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2015 13:40:07 GMT
I totally understand where people are coming from. I didn't get how electrical cables could make a difference until around 10 years ago when my Dad and I visited the Bristol Hifi show. We went into the TCI (True Colours Industries) room and they were demoing their newly released cables.
Now as you can imagine, a lot of people were in there and I just couldn't get my head around how a power cable could make such a difference, but I thought I'd give them the benefit of the doubt so my Dad and I duly sat down to take a listen.
Firstly, why do "most" Hifi companies insist on playing their demos at shows so flippin' loud? Richard Lord was always the worst when demoing his new REL subwoofers... So after asking them to turn it down to sensible levels, they began the demo, firstly swapping out the interconnect cables. There may have been a difference but certainly not enough considering the relative prices, then they moved on to Mains cables and I was astounded. I instantly heard a difference, they used a particular track, can't remember what it was now, but it was full of sibilance through there chosen system, but with the first power cable, that disappeared. The sound was smoother, less bright, warmer if anything.
Next they moved onto a 6 way power block and that seemed to make even more difference. Anyway I bought myself one and took it home. I decided to do an A/B comparison, as best as I could. In my system, the difference was astounding, to the point I'd argue at the time it was the best upgrade I'd made. Vocals were more pronounced, bass was deeper but more controlled, the soundstage had grown, just amazing.
At the time of buying the 6 way power socker, I was living in a 70's built flat block on the top floor in Horsham, West Sussex, since I moved to a 5 year old house in Newbury, Berkshire and when we moved in (around 8 years ago) I did the same A/B comparison and whilst there was an improvement with the TCI 6 way block, it wasn't anywhere near as pronounced, and I honestly don't know why.
Paul.
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Post by jazzbones on Jun 24, 2015 13:54:15 GMT
Hey Pinko re: your pending move to France, I hear that the French wrap garlands of onions or garlic (dependent on region) around their mains cables... its worth a try
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Post by pinkie on Jun 24, 2015 15:12:34 GMT
Yes I can confirm Richard system sounds lovely, doesn't sound hi-fi or forced it just sounds natural, the music washes straight across the room as if the speakers aren't there. Richard have you ever thought of being a columnist for a newspaper? A post like that would go well in a broadsheet. The Times have just offered to serialise it - could be bigger than 50 Shades !
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Post by pinkie on Jun 24, 2015 15:15:29 GMT
Hey Pinko re: your pending move to France, I hear that the French wrap garlands of onions or garlic (dependent on region) around their mains cables... its worth a try We will be near Quillan (rugby country) - in the Toulouse area - so I guess that'll be garlic. Pink Garlic. I gather they also use the cloves as equipment supports to good effect
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Post by pinkie on Jun 24, 2015 15:43:29 GMT
PJdowns. I'm intrigued. As ever. My problem is I get no result when I try, and my trusted sources who are supposed to understand this stuff tell me thats what the laws of physics would predict. I do plan to seriously investigate accessories on my banish the hum mission, and I am up for trying things (maybe not in the next couple of weeks, but in principle). There is a split for me between things like Balanced Power Supplies which might have an explicable effect (like ground loop breaking) and fuses - which rely on alien invasion and Star trek physics ("its something science hasn't discovered yet"). But if I get a result that conflicts with the laws of physics, I will be pushing for an explanation from the lad what knows. This gives me a good opportunity to explain this hum thing more. It has been a lifelong theme (like trying to get Owen to produce a headphone amp). I met Arthur (and Owen) because of hum. My Pink Triangle hummed when I binned the vile free Linn cartridge in the LV-V arm and fitted an Ortofon VMS20IIE. The culprit was the PT transformer located right under the cartridge path - the solution to move the transformer outside the plinth. But ever since then hum problems and I seem to find our paths eternally entwined The point here is how much inaudible hum or other noise is on badly grounded installations causing a murkiness on the window of sound? This one concerns the AV input only on the PIP. I have a DAC input and a phono input which are hum free (as far as I can hear). Swapping the DAC and AV confirm it is the AV connections - not that input on the PIP. The AV connection is from the "line out" for right and left channel from a Yamaha AV amp (the Yamaha power amp handles the other channels -except sub which is active, so line out again). I use 5m of cooking RCA cables which are tucked out of sight and so inevitably pass close to (and parallel with) mains cables for some of the run. Hum's real loud with no chassis grounding. With the first ground wire from AV amp to Quad 405 the hum dropped to almost inaudible if I jacked up the output on the AV line out, and turned down the input on the PIP. Acceptable for watching "Game of Thrones" and the like - but not right. Now - what I don't really understand is the circuit diagram for this ground loop, since the chassis ground connections through earth are all common to one double socket and use similar cables. I thought I had a handle on it, when I silenced the hum by running a second chassis ground from the Quad 405 to the Sky box (satelite cable shields) and assumed there was a second ground path through the satelite cable. But I'm buggered if I can see where. The sky box obviously has a ground connection to the AV amp through the signal return on the HDMI cable - hence the loop and hum. This is the really interesting bit. Not only can I not find an earth on the satelite dish, but when reluctantly I dug everything out from the unit to check and install a better AV chassis to QUad 405 chassis connection (using caravan fridge earth wire) the hum disappeared to silent again - before I connected the ground to the satelite. So, whether due to the heavier gauge ground wire, or whether the original connection hidden behind eveything was poor - there was an improvement. No ground gave large hum - better ground gave inaudible hum. Ground loop fixed - as an absolute, or threshold of noise reduced further to not obviously audible? The other night, waiting to watch Game of Thrones - there is a hum/buzz. Not desperate but "oh no - here we go again". The household technical specialist (Sue) got it first time - "its the lights". And sure enough - turning off the dimmer silenced the hum. But is that dimmer caused hum also the ground loop? And if so - that confirms that the loop isnt eliminated but just pushed below a threshold The point being, a mains treatment, like a BPS, might fix that by virtue of breaking the ground loop (although not, if I have the correct understanding, if the secondary ground is bonded to true earth). How often is a mains treatment improving the sound by reducing the hostile noise entering the signal path through very small ground loop issues. Rather than the "fazers on stun - Spock" explanations And hence my interest in transformers as a mains treatment (well ground loop elimination) experiment. (BTW both "quality shielded" interconnects I borrowed, and shielded mains cables made sod-all difference. Re routing as much of the mains cable away from the signal as humanly possible improved things a bit, before the mega-ground fixed it)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2015 16:43:30 GMT
I don't personally care about anything before the mains socket in the wall. To me the most important thing is to choose a good quality lead that will immunise the mains cable from any outside influence, good quality/well made mains plug & IEC if applicable. That alone is piece of mind for me over a standard mains cable. My Mains extension block used Belden 19364 not expensive,jobs a good un.. I personally do not care what any one claims about specialist cables & have no desire what so ever to try anything else.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2015 17:22:10 GMT
Thanks for post, Richard. I found it both informative and enjoyable. I can't say I disagree with any of it, especially the notion of perception being more than just hearing. I know from past experience that I have expected and "heard" bigger sound from chunkier amps and thicker cable. We are indeed complex creatures. Letting go of any wish to be consistent in my opinions even if that makes me less "credible" to others, has been a positive step for me. If something worked in the past but doesn't now, I'm quite happy to accept my own potential delusion on either occasion. Sometimes I feel I have tried to rationalise experiences (and even deny them) in order to have the comfort of being in solid and reliable ground. These days I find it more fun when my beliefs are challenged and confounded by my sensory experiences. One day I may even be sat enjoying Opera or Ballet and is be the first to admit it. Just don't expect the same for Gilbert and Sullivan because that would take a miracle
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Post by pinkie on Jun 24, 2015 17:46:32 GMT
Gilbert and Sullivan is taboo here too Andrew. Sue's ex was a member of D'Oyly Carte when an indiscretion occured ! A forum members lot is not a happy one
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Post by John on Jun 24, 2015 18:38:58 GMT
Just want to clarify what spastic means Its a condition that effects muscle tone and has little to do with special needs, learning disabilities and autism. It has often been used in the negative and a lot of people who do not suffer from this but have other disabilities would find being called this insulting. Of course in right context there is nothing wrong with the word.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2015 20:24:32 GMT
My late mate had Cerebral Palsy. He hated the name Spastic & was quite relieved when the society re named in the 90's to Scope
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