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Post by speedysteve on May 4, 2015 13:05:52 GMT
Not sure you can beat class D amps for damping factor, often a 1,000 or more. The Behringer certainly proved that point in tapped bass duties, wonderful control. Perhaps a more refined class D amp, like a Crown, is the solution for the upper bass horn, as has been discussed. Yes, that could be the thing indeed. Need to cadge a listen to one.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 15:48:08 GMT
Damping factor is a bit of an overstated issue. Consider for the moment that the driver is connected to the amp with wire that has a resistance. If really chunky cable is used, 12-gauge, which has a cross sectional area of 5.3mm^2 and the cable is 2 metres long - that cable resistance is 0.013 ohms - which determines the maximum conventional definition of damping factor - for an 8-ohm driver that gives a limiting value of 650. Add 10 milliohms at each connector x 4 and you get a conventional damping factor of 150.
So factors of 1000 or more have no basis in anything that is practical.
But if you think of the total circuit resistance - driver 8 ohms (say) cable 0.013 ohms and solid state amplifier 0.05 ohms (typical) shows that the amp contributes a mere 0.6% of the total circuit resistance. It becomes an even smaller percentage if you consider that there is no account of the strongly frequency dependent impedance of a passive crossover - even a single inductor in series with a driver will have a DC resistance of around an ohm, or not much less (the last really big one I bought was 0.6 ohms DC).
So the damping factor is always dominated by the electrical resistance of the driver itself.
Damping factor was a term coined in the 1940's by Fritz Langford-Smith in the Radiotron Designer's Handbook - a bible to this day of anything to do with electronics and valved amps (most commercial valved amp designs come straight out of it). But he said in a letter to Wireless World in 1947 said that since the damping of the speaker is dominated by the driver resistance itself "there is little to be gained by attempting to achieve excessively low output impedances".
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 15:57:24 GMT
Yes and no craig - I have had a very good valve PP amp - see prev post. Get what you are saying about Quad 405's. Is the 606 clear of those issues? I have no direct experience of the 606, and any in-built failure modes, such as there are with the 405. But looking at the schematic, there is no output crowbar, which is good!
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 16:06:39 GMT
Yes give the Exposure a go you maybe quite surprised
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 16:07:32 GMT
When I visited to Craig he was using a Douglas Self design that had wonderful mid bass Might be worth a try I am sure Greg can point you to links around the design Most kind of you John! I purchased the boards, and populated them myself, from www.signaltransfer.freeuk.com/ . You can buy them ready built and tested, but you still have to be competent in DIY audio. What you'd need is two Load Invariant or Trimodal (that you can switch between Class B, AB and A), plus a power supply board. Then you'll need a suitable toroid to provide 45/0/45V DC. The Load Invariant design in my set up produces 110W into 8 ohms and 180W into 4 ohms - provided that your mains transformer is stiff enough. I went over the top with heatsinks - I specced them for continuous sine at full power indefinitely. Which means that they never get more than hardly warm at all at ear-bleeding levels.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 16:27:41 GMT
Yes and no craig - I have had a very good valve PP amp - see prev post. Get what you are saying about Quad 405's. Is the 606 clear of those issues? I have no direct experience of the 606, and any in-built failure modes, such as there are with the 405. But looking at the schematic, there is no output crowbar, which is good! OK - I've had a closer look at the 606 schematic. The potentially offending resistor is R12 - a 3.3k resistor that feeds a 6.8V zener D2. Since it has 53.4 - 6.8 volts across it, the power dissipation is 0.66W. The board layout shows a resistor size the same as all the resistors on the board, and it has to be suspect. It should be typically a 1W part, and be spaced above the board to allow air circulation. Yup - looking at images on the web, R12 is a larger part than the others - but looks like an 0.6W resistor that is hard down on the board, and looks charred. The fix on various forums is to remove it and do something like a say as above. Bit disappointing that Quad seemed incapable of calculating the power dissipation of a resistor!
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Post by MartinT on May 4, 2015 19:18:09 GMT
Damping factor is a bit of an overstated issue. Consider for the moment that the driver is connected to the amp with wire that has a resistance. If really chunky cable is used, 12-gauge, which has a cross sectional area of 5.3mm^2 and the cable is 2 metres long - that cable resistance is 0.013 ohms - which determines the maximum conventional definition of damping factor - for an 8-ohm driver that gives a limiting value of 650. Add 10 milliohms at each connector x 4 and you get a conventional damping factor of 150. So factors of 1000 or more have no basis in anything that is practical. Agreed. Bear in mind, though, that the active output stage of a beefy solid state amp is often subject to negative feedback so it will try to compensate for the back-EMF of the driver and retain control.
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Post by speedysteve on May 4, 2015 20:28:49 GMT
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Post by MartinT on May 4, 2015 22:11:34 GMT
I've never seen them quote a figure for it, Steve. However, 16 power MOSFETs per channel would indicate a suitably low output impedance leading to high damping factor.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 22:27:46 GMT
From Small's papers (drivers always list the Small/Thiele parameters), the effective system resistance is given by:
Ratc = Rab + Ras + (Bl)^2/{(Rg + Re)*Sd^2}
Rab and Ras are enclosure losses and acoustic resistance of driver losses, both of which are pretty much fixed by the box (or baffle, or horn) and the driver. Bl is the force factor of the driver and Sd is the driver piston area.
The main thing to take away from that equation is the term Rg + Re on the bottom line. Rg is the "generator resistance" being the output impedance of the amp plus any other losses in cables, inductors etc, and Re is the electrical resistance of the driver. That effective system resistance defines the LF response of the system (via the total Q of the speaker), and which is almost indifferent to the value of the amplifier output resistance. Which is what I was saying, and confirmed in the tubetv link above
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 22:52:49 GMT
I've never seen them quote a figure for it, Steve. However, 16 power MOSFETs per channel would indicate a suitably low output impedance leading to high damping factor. I think that is a non-sequitur Martin. Paralleling devices improves the available current (assuming the power supply is up to snuff). So such an amp will try to double the power output each time the driver resistance halves. A practical amp never quite manages that for various reasons. But I do not believe that parallel devices implies a low output impedance. In fact it may actually be higher than an amp with fewer parallel devices. MOSFETs are extremely prone to RF self oscillation, with explosive consequences (literally! Got the badge and almost the scar), and massive paralleling usually needs precautions to prevent this that can push output impedance higher. Anyway, you can cheerfully get 500W plus into 8 ohms out of three MOSFET pairs using +/-90V rails.
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Post by MartinT on May 5, 2015 4:01:01 GMT
...but not some 700W plus into 2 ohms.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 9:17:26 GMT
...but not some 700W plus into 2 ohms. Aha. Hence so many FET's - the power doubling into each halving of speaker impedance. Must have one hell of a PSU - you need a 3kVA mains transformer to pull that stunt, and a LOT of reservoir caps. Edit: OK - just read the specs on Chord power amps. Switched mode supply with 3-4kVA capacity. All you need is £8k for the stereo one . I shudder to think how much the SPM 6000MkII Reference mono power amplifier is that can throw out 3kW into 2 ohms. Even a 2 ohm dummy load to test that sort of spec is not a cheap thing in its own right!
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Post by MartinT on May 5, 2015 12:01:04 GMT
Indeed, enormous wirewound resistor in a bucket of oil, and only for a few seconds at that!!
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Post by speedysteve on May 5, 2015 19:54:16 GMT
Yes yes, all this horse power is sexy:) but... How the hell did John's 3kg Behringer do it so well allbeit only in the 20-90Hz range in my system - explain me that?
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Post by pre65 on May 5, 2015 21:27:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 21:33:13 GMT
All the tech specs can tell you a great deal, except how it will sound in your system ?it will give you an indication of possible traits, unless you are viewing sideband graphs for dac frequency plots que AP or MAR system champions. Power is nothing without control, yet so many amplifiers have superb control of drivers yet the music is total locked into speakers never free or open or articulate and therefore constipated in delivery ? I have listened to many amplifiers over the years some with just two pairs of FET's sounding great and a couple of amplifiers with a couple with at least twelve pairs sounding damn fine as well The key here is implementation of the design all aspects of the whole must be careful fully thought out. Looking at amplifier speaker impedances to suit your system imho is more important towards improved sound quality than looking for 3.2kw@1ohm lol Power supplies, stiff enough, quiet enough, storage capacity to cope with big transients , fast charging of the caps, short signal pathways, pre stage, band width, feedback which way to go? Negative, closed loop, DC coupled , positive feedback, each has their benefits and draw backs, specific class, a, a/b d both fully digital or pwm switching, switch mode psu is toroidal heat dissipation, circuit boards, 4'6 or 8 layer? Fully discrete, through hole, valves or integrated circuits (op amps' etc) Will it pass CE testing, Here's a thought the LDV covers up to 50vac any voltage over this is outside this spec to generate large power figures then as Craig has pointed out you are going to need to raise the rail voltages to +/-90v so the need to swing 180v is required which in reality takes your speaker cable out if the LDV and into CE approval In all my years of designing and working with different companies with amplifiers some of the very best sounds have come from 80-120Wrms for solid state We have not discussed on chip switching (lower power devices ) which doesn't suffer from the usual FET drawbacks though smaller power outputs limit overall design parameters My suggestion for Steve would be a high bandwidth 100khz+ class d around 100Wrms to start with. Having an ultra stiff, ultra fast, ultra quiet psu with ultra fast storage is no guarantee of a good sound but it helps a lot
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Post by MartinT on May 6, 2015 5:55:16 GMT
How the hell did John's 3kg Behringer do it so well allbeit only in the 20-90Hz range in my system - explain me that? Class D - output transistors fully on or fully off. Gives great control of the bass driver, as we heard.
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Post by MartinT on May 6, 2015 5:58:29 GMT
One thing you forgot, TonyC, is the topology: Class A (very rare), Class AB (very common), sliding bias etc.
How much of your listening is done while in Class A is a very good question to ask.
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Post by speedysteve on May 6, 2015 6:07:50 GMT
Thanks - food for thought. I always wonder what "recently serviced" means - taken lid off, looked at it and done some dusting methinks
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