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Post by stanleyb on Apr 18, 2015 9:25:33 GMT
1. These are the sort of things that make a lot of British audio servicing technicians look out of touch. 2. Capacitor technology has advanced a lot from being just another component to the status of a critical component for sound quality. 1. How do you know about this large(?) number of technicians? What number and proportion of the total are you referring to? To you have access to a survey of all audio engineers? That us a very ambiguous statement to my eyes, I can accept you may speak with them about DACs, your products in particular, but do you review all their areas of work to include PSU capacitors 2. Surely capacitors are as critical as the original designers design made them. They haven't gone throgh some mystical transformation according to your statement. They are what they ever were. If a bad design or choice of supplier was made that is true from day 1 of the product. If well designed and spec'd product was used they are no major issue. 1. I was in the audio servicing and repair sector for quite a lot of years, starting as a technician and working my way up into management through several repair companies. I am still involved with some of them on a technical basis. The knowledge of the difference different component types and quality can bring is not something that technicians tend to bother themselves with or get taught about. You have to move higher up the scale to engineers from university level before you start to see a jump in knowledge. But people with those kind of skills and knowledge end up in the higher end jobs as design engineers etc. 2. If something was designed with components going back years or decades, the designer is likely to have used what was available at the time and at the right price. Things like 1% metal film resistors, polystyrene capacitors etc were often avoided due to cost even though their superiority in audio circuits have been known for quite some time. When you are doing a recap etc. the current cost of those once expensive components can make it beneficial to use the better performing parts now since production costs are not an issue in this case. As for your comment that capacitors haven't gone through some mystical transformation: caps can be had with lower ESR etc., and the effect of different capacitor dielectrics in audio reproduction are now far better understood. New materials have been researched and developed since the seventies that have benefited audio reproduction. So capacitors are no longer what they ever were as you assume.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 18, 2015 9:41:48 GMT
Some very well designed capacitors, Alan, such as Black Gates and Cerafines, are simply too expensive to include in production equipment. It's an easier choice for the DIY upgrader, though.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 11:08:48 GMT
Sorry Blackgates arhhhhh music killers of the first order
Ideal for jazz cats ummmmmmmmm nice big rich warm sound delightful Simpkins
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Post by MartinT on Apr 18, 2015 11:17:42 GMT
I prefer Elna Cerafine II personally, but I know Black Gates have a big following. They're pretty much unobtainium now, anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 15:22:40 GMT
Yes - Rubycon used to make Black Gate caps under license to Jelmax, who held the patents. After a number of disputes they fell out in 2007 when Rubycon finally decided to pull the plug on production. No other manufacturer was found who would take on what (in terms of vast capacitor volume of catalogue parts) a truly tiny quantity manufacture of a specialised component series. Final stocks are dwindling away, and bringing large prices when old stock is dredged up.
At least Elna still seems to be in there with the Silmic, which is not stratospheric prices in audio terms.
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Apr 18, 2015 16:18:18 GMT
I seem to recall reading somewhere that Back Gates are to be produced again.
a lot of people I know swear by WKZ's used in power supplies.
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Post by danielquinn on Apr 20, 2015 8:34:48 GMT
I have upgraded 3 amps and a phono stage with black gates . waste of time and money
i had a rotel phono stage chock full of black gates , it was bettered by the cambridge audio in my hif .
i will not be experimenting with them for the rest of my life .
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 8:48:59 GMT
I have recapped a good few amps over the years and never heard a jot of difference between new and old, whatever the brand. I also remember a freshly Avondale serviced HiCap that I had alongside a stock unserviced one with BHCs. Again no difference, I have never changed smaller caps in anything but my experience with smoothing caps hasn't encouraged me to dabble.
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Post by MikeMusic on Apr 20, 2015 12:00:18 GMT
They won't specify because they want buyers to believe their equipment will last forever. Naim say 10 years for most of their kit Mine improved nicely after over 20 years
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 15:06:42 GMT
I don't believe Naim's claims. Either they are trying to make money from un-necessary servicing or they are building in issues to fuel a nice side-line. Or maybe they are lacking in design competence?
My personal opinion is option 1. No naim amp of 10 years or more that I have recapped has benefitted IMO.
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Post by dvh on Apr 20, 2015 17:09:27 GMT
I switch everything hifi off when not in use, apart from the Exposure CDP, where the switch is round the back and hard to reach, and the Michell Iso phono stage which hasn't even got an on/off switch. Never had anything re-capped; Exposure amps are 17 years old and sound fine to me (but that might be my aged ears not being able to detect a deterioration).
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Post by ChrisB on Apr 20, 2015 18:39:31 GMT
So who has the oldest and regularly in use component that hasn't been recapped?
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Post by Bonky on Apr 20, 2015 20:46:13 GMT
So who has the oldest and regularly in use component that hasn't been recapped? As previously stated I have a Sugden A21a amp - never recapped. It was made in Jan 2002. Bw Richard.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 20:57:04 GMT
So who has the oldest and regularly in use component that hasn't been recapped? Up until I needlessly recapped them, My Exposure 3 and 4 dated back to 1978. I previously had a Mcintosh that sounded fab and was unmolested since built in 1964
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 12:56:25 GMT
All equipment should be turned off when not in use. Simples. There is nothing to debate about it and much bollocks talked about it ("my amp is designed to be left on" No it's not!) Hopefully many will continue to ignore this though as it gives me a steady income repairing stuff that has been left on 24/7!
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Post by Sovereign on Apr 21, 2015 13:15:47 GMT
I used to keep everything turned on 24-7 but since I have now made almost all of my HIFI I turn it off in the evenings, I trust myself but there is always a thread of doubt that I may have missed something
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Post by danielquinn on Apr 21, 2015 13:27:37 GMT
All equipment should be turned off when not in use. Simples. There is nothing to debate about it and much bollocks talked about it ("my amp is designed to be left on" No it's not!) Hopefully many will continue to ignore this though as it gives me a steady income repairing stuff that has been left on 24/7! Well reasoned and argued post thier Jez , I particularly liked the evidence offered
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 14:00:56 GMT
All equipment should be turned off when not in use. Simples. There is nothing to debate about it and much bollocks talked about it ("my amp is designed to be left on" No it's not!) Hopefully many will continue to ignore this though as it gives me a steady income repairing stuff that has been left on 24/7! Well reasoned and argued post thier Jez , I particularly liked the evidence offered It's a statement of the facts. I won't be debating it or providing any evidence. If being a professional Electronic Engineer specialising in Hi Fi equipment and with a life time of experience ain't enough then tough
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Post by danielquinn on Apr 21, 2015 14:45:51 GMT
Well reasoned and argued post thier Jez , I particularly liked the evidence offered It's a statement of the facts. I won't be debating it or providing any evidence. If being a professional Electronic Engineer specialising in Hi Fi equipment and with a life time of experience ain't enough then tough Then you wish people to take you at your word and that is of course your prerogative. Me , I take only one persons word for anything , my own . I will of course bear your comments in mind if/when I eventually draw my own irrevocable conclusion , but i have to say it will not be anytime soon as it is a low priority for me
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Post by danielquinn on Apr 21, 2015 14:51:17 GMT
But just to add to the debate , what about transistor thermal shock
does the constant reheating cooling from on/off mechanisms not outweigh the permanently charged effects in your opinion
or capacitor charge induced stress.
once again issues arsing out of constant on/off .
there are surely consequences and effects of both decisons and a one is right one is wrong is surely inaccurate .
dogma is the enemy of knowledge .
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