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Post by julesd68 on Feb 12, 2015 15:29:04 GMT
I would like some help please understanding the nature of what makes a great cdp.
I'm just about to send mine off for a new transport and it has got me thinking about trying something different in the near future. Thing is, I listen nearly exclusively to vinyl, but have a fairly large number of cds for myself and the mrs that I would still like to be able to enjoy, using a reliable system.
What I am interested in is how the technology has changed, and whether these changes are for the better or not. A few questions would be -
- In determining the potential sound quality of a cdp, what are the most important components to consider and what spec should I be looking for?
- If I was to get a two box solution, what makes for the best transport and does one need to get a recent DAC - does the constant evolution of DACS bring noticeable benefits?
- What makes for a reliable design and who makes the best transports in this respect?
- Can it make sense to get a cheap but reliable vintage cdp (obviously one with a replaceable transport) and marry it with a 'latest spec' DAC?
- What do I need to know about bit rates / oversampling / filters etc?
Bearing in mind how infrequently I do use a player, I will be making a modest second-hand purchase, under 500 quid. I know it's a difficult thing to describe, but my preference is for 'musicality' above all as opposed to the most high-resolution and revealing sound, which I guess is why I have a preference for the black stuff ... Saying that, I once tried one of the TEAC VRDS players which are meant to be more 'analogue' sounding and actually found it too mushy and not detailed enough! Seems to be a difficult balance to find ...
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Post by ChrisB on Feb 13, 2015 8:35:29 GMT
CD players have never really caught my imagination. I find them really uninspiring pieces of machinery for some reason. However, what I find interesting is that all the early players that were damned by the hifi press (and, as a result of that, a lot of the potential customers) are all becoming lauded for their wonderful 'analogue-like' sound. I remember the reports about many of these machines as being searingly bright and having no bass - well I've rarely heard a turntable sound like that!
The attraction of an early transport (or player as transport) is easy to see as a lot were made so robustly. The trouble is finding one that works and will do so reliably for a reasonable period.
The last time I bought a CD player, on my wish list was something that featured digital inputs so that the DAC could be used as a hub for other sources and, also with the thought that, if the transport failed, the DAC could still be used. At the time, that requirement narrowed the field down considerably!
A cheap transport - something like a bargain priced used DVD player - running into the DAC of my Accuphase sounds pretty presentable.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 8:57:26 GMT
From my own experience, the quality of the power supply and the output stage have been the biggest factos.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 13, 2015 9:01:40 GMT
I think the "sound" is mainly in the dac. When I was touting DaCapo and Ordinal round years ago, the transports made no difference (generally). Both those Dac's reclock. coax BNC was the preferred coupling. I have been unable to tell very cheap RCA leads with 75ohm BNC adaptors from the dedicated Digital cable I bought. Very mixed results with optical.
This response would be more use if I had ticked off a few of the items on my "pending" list, but I didn't want to leave it ignored. I would have expected modern dacs, even cheap ones , to trounce the earlier ones. Certainly in the case of the PT products, circuit design rather than foo over-engineering were the key to the differences (DaCapo featured, uniquely, a discreet dac - one we built from components rather than a chip) and both Dac's allowed different filter modules to be used. A decent power supply makes a difference.
So - you would have thought that all the bright ideas for circuits had been had and stuck on a chip and the rate of progress would have slowed. Whilst I haven't heard any really nasty modern dacs in my brief dabble, nothing caught my attention, until recently, ironically, the cheap DAC in the Pi. At this stage of reporting it was good - but not as good as DaCapo. But I have yet to put them head to head now the Pi has a battery powering it (which makes a big difference compared with the standard cheap SMPS). Even if DaCapo ends up edging it (and I will be looking at power supplies for DaCapo too - since DC made a more significant difference on DaCapo, than the largely foo batteries on Pip2), the Berry Dac is perfectly listenable.
So - I would go with an old player as transport, and get as good a dac as your budget will stretch to. Use BNC to connect - don't start out allocating budget to a cable. No idea which Dac to suggest you try, since unless I have missed something, I don't think you can combine the Berry Dac with the Berry digi+ inputs on the same unit.
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Post by yomanze on Feb 13, 2015 17:08:45 GMT
From my own experience, the quality of the power supply and the output stage have been the biggest factos. Indeed, especially with digital. I would advise to the OP of finding a decent DAC, as no transport will radically change how it sounds and is instead a fine tuning exercise. CDPs are not a lifetime investment, but a DAC can be. |
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Post by John on Feb 13, 2015 17:29:00 GMT
DACs have progressed a lot in terms of SQ. Something like the Caiman with a lithium power supply gives a very good sound for not crazy bucks. DVD or Blue ray players can make excellent cost effective transports, you could even consider going file based.
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Post by MartinT on Feb 19, 2015 7:26:54 GMT
So - I would go with an old player as transport, and get as good a dac as your budget will stretch to. That would be my approach, too. Not any old player, mind. Either something good and solid using the Philips CDM9 Pro die-cast mech or Pioneer Stable Platter or, better still, one of the Teac VRDS players. You need not spend a fortune on a DAC - Stan's Caiman-II is a remarkably fine and transparent DAC especially when run on battery.
As for file format, if you use a CD transport then you're going to be fixed at 16/44 and all DACs will support that. Hi-res for optical is going to entail much more money and you'll have to find the music you want on optical media, which isn't that easy.
Further points: the power supply quality is indeed very important as I have found with all transport/players, and anti-vibration tactics are absolutely vital. Here, an Electric Beach S1NX platform would be ideal, placed on RDC Cones. Finally, experiment with both co-ax and optical connections as results can vary.
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 21, 2015 14:55:02 GMT
Many thanks to all for replies. Sorry I haven't been able to post earlier! A decent DAC and transport will be the way to go then. Obviously the Caiman II will be on the shortlist - is there anything else in that bracket worth considering? I quite like the look of the TEAC UD-H01 and have read a few good things about it - www.teac.com/product/ud-h01/I had a TEAC VRDS last year but sold it! Didn't get the chance to pair it with a recent DAC - that was probably a mistake ...  Do NAIM cdp's make good transports? The reason I ask is I've been impressed with their reliability and they are easy to get serviced - my mum has had one for many years and it hasn't given her a second's trouble ... |
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Post by Slinger on Feb 21, 2015 16:14:13 GMT
I'm getting good results using that TEAC UD-H01 and a NAD C516BEE CDP. They cost me a total of £498.00 new. I also run my DAB tuner and JRiver from the P.C. through the TEAC. Well, it seemed silly to buy a DAC with 3 inputs and not use them all.  |
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Post by ChrisB on Feb 21, 2015 16:22:15 GMT
Well, it seemed silly to buy a DAC with 3 inputs and not use them all. (rofl) Is that what you're meant to do with them? Blimey, I'd best get buying stuff then! (owner of two 4-input Beresfords and a CD player with another 2) |
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 25, 2015 18:20:05 GMT
For some reason I was convinced I didn't have a digital connection on my cdp but I do!
So the plan is now to get the repair done and use it as a transport. I will try the Caiman II first I think as I like the price and Stan is fairly local to me.
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Post by jazzbones on Feb 26, 2015 15:27:13 GMT
I don't think many of the Naim cdps have a digital output, certainly my Naim CDX2/XPS2 doesn't, for the simple reason that Naim didn't believe in outboard DACs for awhile until recently relying on getting power supplies right as a priority. Apparently, their present new DAC is very good but I've never heard it. Their cdps are certainly well made and work well with amps etc., outside of their own margue. Advice given, herein, is certainly sound and in my little home office I have a Marantz 65II Special Edition (my first ever cd player) connected to a Cambridge Audio DacMagic upsampling DAC... I'm surprised at just how good it is although the draw mechanism of the Marantz is slow and clunky by modern standards.
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Post by jazzbones on Feb 26, 2015 15:29:09 GMT
PS somehow or other I got Slinger's avatar on my last post... sorry, Slinger not meant for you, damn finger stutter.
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Post by Slinger on Feb 28, 2015 11:00:07 GMT
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