|
Post by pinkie on May 8, 2015 21:40:18 GMT
You keep banging on about it being an empirically obvious fact , but you will see I highlighted earlier how it is impossible to test the efficacy of a rcm over the wet cleaning vertical bath manual system* [ well regarded by m fremer in sterophile] So how do you suppose people are reaching their conclusions . Many of the people banging on about their superiority have £695 mains leads and £50 fuses or numerous foo you have called ridiculous in the past . Seems to me you wish to rely on other peoples opinion only when it suits your argument . * This would even for a subjective assessment require 2 identical records , equally dirty . I consider this to be an impossibility . New records would tend the defeat the object . I say this even accounting for ridiculous comments about cleaning the release agent I'm not relying on anyone's opinion. I borrowed a moth rcm from Arthur, cleaned a record I had previously ruined with wet cleaning, drew my own conclusions, and bought a cheap rcm from Brazil which does every bit as good a job, and use it. Where does that involve faith in foo?
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on May 8, 2015 15:04:22 GMT
Nah - he'd have tried one and settled the issue the obvious way. You don't debate whether its raining - you go outside and find out if you get wet. You debate why it rains... Your analogy is not valid . wet clean v vacuum wet clean arguments are analogous to arguing over whether the rain in manchester gets you wetter than the rain in leeds. No. A closer analogy would be whether you get wetter in a Thunderstorm or mist. And the solution is not to debate the point but go out for 2 minutes and then see how long your clothes take to dry afterwards. It isn't a subject for debate but for experience. You debate the existence of God. Not whether there is a church building in Yalding - that can be established by direct physical experience.
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on May 8, 2015 13:37:37 GMT
I am pretty sure Spinoza would have debated the factual accuracy off claims to the cleaning superiority of a vacuum wet clean over a simple wet clean . Shrouded as it is in irrationality , received wisdom and convention . Nah - he'd have tried one and settled the issue the obvious way. You don't debate whether its raining - you go outside and find out if you get wet. You debate why it rains...
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on May 8, 2015 7:09:31 GMT
I get the figures from examining the afore mentioned photos, the wet clean with a mircofibre cloth left more detritus behind than the the vacuum RCM - simples. I can't see the problem with understanding that they sound rubbish with rubbish in the grooves and better without it. By the way the marketing spin is not for my product, so what's this tosh about benefit of the doubt? This is so obviously true to anyone who has bothered trying an RCM that it is one of the wonders of HiFi fora that there is any merit in a debate. I recall the records I ruined (mostly my dads records, my dad ruined) with wet cleaning "leave it in to dry like rock in the groove" methods. Some of those records I rescued with a proprietary foam that was the equivalent of the wood glue technique - peel it off dry. One - absolute gem (Bach double violin concerto David and Igor Oistrach - probably my all time favourite record)- remained in its concreted-up condition until I was persuaded to have a go at an RCM (credit where due - Marco and his magic methods). WIth some trepidation I have to say, given I associated any wet cleaning with trashing records (unless you played them wet) I put Bach through the treatment. A complete revelation. Not perfect - it was old and abused - but restored beyond my wiildest dreams. My Dad cried when I played it to him. Debate Spinoza - not whether vacuum RCM's clean records better
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on May 6, 2015 16:11:05 GMT
Very briefly. Saw AK today - he is focussed on Munich, where he is planning to reveal a CGI of his F1 arm (I actually saw parts for it today!!) And there may even be a working AK47 on display. And his isolation cradle for SL1200 and others , rather bizarly named "kinetic" which sounds to me like a Linn product Technics "spin" and "strata" are on hold till after Munich, when he is going to measure a Mike New bearing, and confirm his measurements for the Funk products, and double check with information from Wonky regarding fit and universality, before producing final production versions. If necessary there will be a separate Mike New fit hub (at a price) - if he is not persuaded that the MN bearing is made to the correct measurements. Anyway - Funk Technics parts - bearing, platter/mat and isolation cradle - after Munich The F1 is a bit special - some of the materials don't exist yet! I think the CGI will make an impact at Munich though (nobody will miss it - he has taken an ad space which is the entrance door mat!!!). If anyone wants a sneak preview, he said I can post one once he is on the ferry for Munich!
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Apr 28, 2015 16:51:03 GMT
Kevin Ah Technics power supplies. Arthur is talking of one, but if you must fiddle with such things I can think of an intriguing alternative option. In the unlikely event I can get Owen to design power supplies using his patented technology for the likes of a Raspberry Pi, I am sure we could add one for the SL1200 to the list. Meantime I am failing miserably to be patient and wait to get to hear the 2 power amps he has waiting for me. Namely "Pop" as he refers to the one Pink Triangle Integral made, that is now restored to his original design spec, and the AHB2. I have a feeling that one of those, and I suspect the new baby, is going to be the final piece in my personal jigsaw. It is picking up storming reviews, with not a dissenter I can find anywhere - albeit most of them are pro equipment reviews. I'm softening up the Mrs for budget authorisation, and she's coming round... But looks like it will be June before I get to hear them - damn! Glad you enjoyed the platter and bearing. Hopefully we can get together again soon. Martin - I'm sorry you didn't get to listen to a proper platter and had your time wasted in that way. My friend in Newhaven can be frustrating like that. If it wasn't for the fish lunches ...
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 25, 2015 11:30:56 GMT
My position on this is I do not know cause I have not tried. However pinkie's logic is flawed cause he assummes all that can be heard can be measured . I consider that to be crap . Bollocks. Surely in a profession such as the one to which you claim to belong they teach "RTFQ" I said "{a measurement} might NOT tell you how it will sound". That surely does NOT assume all that can be heard can be measured. Quite the opposite. What I said was, if the discussion is about noise - that can be measured. The measurement won't tell you the amplifier sounds good, but it will tell you whether noise has been added to the signal. I might add, that I missed my usual caveat "within sensible limits". So plugging a 110v device into 240v may well fry it. Huge spikes on the mains (like a lightening strike) may be audible. But within tolerances, outside fault conditions, nobody had demonstrated that changing the mains you feed a good power supply with, changes the DC it produces.
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 25, 2015 8:02:22 GMT
Richard you are very familiar with my balanced power supply, you have made it your mission more than most to research it. Everything that we hear through our hifi systems is nothing but an electrical signal, from the source to the speakers. We are hearing electricity. Good quality AC, and good quality DC is critical to the sound, in my experience. There is so much crap on the mains that it effects the quality of the sound from your speakers and / or TV screen. Have you never seen the lines of distortion accross your TV screen when someone is using a drill elsewhere in the house? That is a form of pollution on the mains showing itself through your TV screen, in the same way polution on the mains wil effect the sound comming out of your speakers. A regen or a BPS can, amung other things, stop this polution / noise dead. Richard for you to say that "what you do with the AC does not have any impact on the sound." is inferring that there are others on this forum that are barking mad as we are claining something that isn't there. We are all well educated people, none of us are as mad as we seem. Your experiences, are your experiences, you cant project that on others as a blanket and definitive statement. James - I am familiar with the fact that you make DIY balanced power supplies. I heard yours only once in a system which needed a bad 50hz hum on one channel fixing. I have not yet tried one in my system. Maybe one day. Regarding noise and electricity, see my reply to Martins post. you can measure noise. There is no need for a subjective discussion of that. A BPS may stop the noise from a drill affecting the picture on your TV screen. But the noise from a drill doesn't affect the TV screen in my house. There are no lines of distortion. So there are other ways to skin the cat. If the noise is airborne electromagnetic output then a BPS is not going to help anything. If it is noise on the mains supply, that issue is with the ground connection . I'm not saying your barking mad James. Just that your experiences are not explicable by conventional science, incapable of measurement, and cannot be repeated in an environment which establishes that the results heard are due to changes in sound pressure waves and not other sensory and perceptory factors which contribute to the hearing experience. Put simply - in spite of repeated suggestions that a simple blind test could nail this for good - nobody in the mains camp has been able to demonstrate they can hear what they assert that they hear. I don't challenge their right to keep making those assertions - only observe the purely subjective nature of them, and obstinate refusal to carry out a simple and conclusive test.
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 25, 2015 7:32:32 GMT
Martin - that is typical of the blurring of subjectivism and objectivism which I find so frustrating. The statement is not untrue. The conclusions you draw from it are.
Noise left on the DC can be heard as well as measured. That bad DC affects the sound isn't at all disputed by me. That bad AC makes bad DC is disputed.
So - to clarify, are you saying we can take a good power supply, whether SMPS like the one in your Chord, or the one in Owens ABH2, or a good linear design as made by uncle tom cobbly and all, and measure the difference in the dc output that is caused by changing a kettle lead, or a gold plated fuse, or even using a balanced mains supply?
Because if we can measure the change in the DC that results from that mains foo, there is absolutely no dispute between us. IF you could perform that measurement, you make the unimpeachable case that Mains affects the DC which nobody disputes affects the sound.
But can you do that measurement?
Oh , and while we're at it - yes DQ, you are almost certainly right about Jez. I don't know the detail of how his designs work, but I understand the principle of how features integrated into the design of an amplifier, inherently reject power supply noise, and form part of the power supply itself.
You might think that would make it hard to measure . You can't just measure the output of a Pip power supply itself to measure how much noise on the input remains on the output. But that is not true. That is why, ages back on this forum, I pointed out that the correct place to measure power supply noise in an amplifier is on the signal output of the amplifier. It's what Owen measures all the time when designing amplifiers, across frequencies extending into megahz, because of the affect that noise there has on audio frequencies too. Noise on a power supply is - well, NOISE. The measure is signal to noise ratio, and noise floor. It may not be the only important factor in a design, nor tell you how a design will sound, but it sure as hell measures noise!
(NB - regarding measuring noise on the output, and balanced power supplies, be aware that because of the way that a BPS can affect the noise on the ground which is common to both the supply and the signal, then it can have an impact on the sound quality. This is one of the main reasons they are used in a professional environment, although as the much published Sound on Sound article points out, there are better ways to skin that particular cat)
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 24, 2015 21:17:27 GMT
With respect, that's simply rubbish. The AC-to-DC chain is a system. A system.
Everything that's in the mains - power waveform, distortion, noise - everything goes through the system and arrives at the other end filtered down according to its frequency/impedance curve, a little of it converted into heat, the rest of it arriving intact. It certainly doesn't just disappear. Therefore, the quality of the mains feed and the quality of the power supply directly influence the resultant DC. There is no such thing as a perfect power supply and there is no such amplifier with 100% rejection ratio (PSRR).
Change the AC you feed the system with, change the resulting DC, change the signal.
With the greatest possible respect, if that statement is true you can readily measure it. No subjectivism needed. Dc is flat, or it isn't. If you are right, it can be measured.
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 24, 2015 21:15:13 GMT
second - improving the mains supply to the DC converter. You don't improve the quality of the conversion to dc by taking a bit of noise or reactance out of the mains that feeds it. It is not the same thing at all to argue that rewiring the house will change the performance of my Raspberry Pi using the cheap nasty smps power supply. They are 2 separate issues. Build a good AC to DC converter - yes , big difference. Change the AC you feed it with - no, no difference (within sensible limits - ie you can't expect to feed a 110v converter with 230v) With respect, that's simply rubbish. The AC-to-DC chain is a system. A system.
Everything that's in the mains - power waveform, distortion, noise - everything goes through the system and arrives at the other end filtered down according to its frequency/impedance curve, a little of it converted into heat, the rest of it arriving intact. It certainly doesn't just disappear. Therefore, the quality of the mains feed and the quality of the power supply directly influence the resultant DC. There is no such thing as a perfect power supply and there is no such amplifier with 100% rejection ratio (PSRR).
Change the AC you feed the system with, change the resulting DC, change the signal.
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 24, 2015 17:58:45 GMT
No John
I am making no comment about the power supplies James and Martin use. I don't know them. I am distinguishing between the fact that the way AC is turned into DC can have a big impact on sound - whereas what you do with the AC does not have any impact on the sound.
A device needs DC to run. Ideally that should be ruler flat. If the source of the DC is mains, not a battery, then a process is needed to convert a wiggly sinewave into a ruler flat DC. That conversion is critical. How hairy, wiggly, or otherwise that AC is of no consequence - because the power supplies job is to flatten it.
James has pointed out that statement is definitive and contradicts the experience of others. But those others experience it themselves, and are unable to demonstrate satisfactorily that the phenomenon actually exists. They are entitled to those experiences - but I am unable to share them, and science is unable to explain them.
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 24, 2015 13:56:53 GMT
John, I think you missed the point. The pip doesn't care what sort of mains it gets as long as it's 240v.
What matters is how ac is turned into dc. It's the sort of dc you give a component that matters. A good power supply won't be bothered what the mains is like.
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 22, 2015 8:20:37 GMT
Hi Richard I think mains will always divide the crowd. Most studios use Balanced mains. I am pretty sure Abbey Road have a dedicated mains system in it. For me I live in a pre war house close to a industrial estate so perhaps this has something to do with it. My biggest mains improvement is when the house got new boards etc. The reason for the work was not as mains improvement more a safety to the home improvement and was not expecting any difference. A lot of people get of the grid as much as they can, e.g. batteries. Get something like a Caiman and feed it with a Lithium battery and it takes into whole new level of performance. Everyone who has tried this has had this result. I have friends who are sceptics, but even some of them have now moved to battery power I think there are 2 issues here which are regularly confused. First - the quality of the dc power supply to hifi matters very much indeed. Replacing poor power supplies with good ones is sure to have the potential to improve the sound. Replacing the cheap simple smps power supply on the Raspberry Pi with a battery is a classic example. But a better quality well designed linear power supply would have similar benefits. The issue is that you are improving the dc conversion - not the mains that feeds that converter. second - improving the mains supply to the DC converter. You don't improve the quality of the conversion to dc by taking a bit of noise or reactance out of the mains that feeds it. It is not the same thing at all to argue that rewiring the house will change the performance of my Raspberry Pi using the cheap nasty smps power supply. They are 2 separate issues. Build a good AC to DC converter - yes , big difference. Change the AC you feed it with - no, no difference (within sensible limits - ie you can't expect to feed a 110v converter with 230v) The pip is a good example of how a fully integrated power supply solution can improve the quality of the sound - and it is consequently not greatly improved by batteries. Independant voltage regulation on each gain stage, and the transconductance configuration have "Power supply" properties that are downstream of the power supply itself - or if you prefer, aspects that are important in a good power supply are integral to the design of the amplifier, and consequently fiddling with the power supply has greatly diminished (to the point of zero) impact. But folk confuses and blur the difference between the importance of converting AC into DC well, and the irrelevance of fannying about with the AC that that conversion process is suuplied with
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 19, 2015 7:06:42 GMT
Cartridge drag is not a factor for belt drives or dc motors as Arthur has proved repeatedly and as is now universally acknowledged. Bloody Martin Colloms and his dust bug. Yes you need to achieve speed stability, which will involve good servo design on a dc motor. Tip 1 - use a smaller pulley and higher speeds if possible. But the main issue is what you do with energy.
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 18, 2015 6:37:28 GMT
Showing my age. It used to be "the man on the Clapham omnibus". Although I doubt he's ever seen a tree these days. I think the advice should be the same dunns forum gave me about balanced power supplies. If you have an issue with the legality and safety report it to the authorities.
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 13, 2015 9:01:40 GMT
I think the "sound" is mainly in the dac. When I was touting DaCapo and Ordinal round years ago, the transports made no difference (generally). Both those Dac's reclock. coax BNC was the preferred coupling. I have been unable to tell very cheap RCA leads with 75ohm BNC adaptors from the dedicated Digital cable I bought. Very mixed results with optical.
This response would be more use if I had ticked off a few of the items on my "pending" list, but I didn't want to leave it ignored. I would have expected modern dacs, even cheap ones , to trounce the earlier ones. Certainly in the case of the PT products, circuit design rather than foo over-engineering were the key to the differences (DaCapo featured, uniquely, a discreet dac - one we built from components rather than a chip) and both Dac's allowed different filter modules to be used. A decent power supply makes a difference.
So - you would have thought that all the bright ideas for circuits had been had and stuck on a chip and the rate of progress would have slowed. Whilst I haven't heard any really nasty modern dacs in my brief dabble, nothing caught my attention, until recently, ironically, the cheap DAC in the Pi. At this stage of reporting it was good - but not as good as DaCapo. But I have yet to put them head to head now the Pi has a battery powering it (which makes a big difference compared with the standard cheap SMPS). Even if DaCapo ends up edging it (and I will be looking at power supplies for DaCapo too - since DC made a more significant difference on DaCapo, than the largely foo batteries on Pip2), the Berry Dac is perfectly listenable.
So - I would go with an old player as transport, and get as good a dac as your budget will stretch to. Use BNC to connect - don't start out allocating budget to a cable. No idea which Dac to suggest you try, since unless I have missed something, I don't think you can combine the Berry Dac with the Berry digi+ inputs on the same unit.
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 13, 2015 6:51:37 GMT
On the subject of threads where I fear to tread, this one features large. I am still interested in trying one of your bps James. Not sure what happened to the one you were going to lend.
But dedicated mains. How does one evaluate and compare. If you want to try 2 dacs which are very close would you be happy auditioning the first dac on Monday 2nd and the next dac on Monday 16th. And smash the first dac so there was no option to go back and check what it sounded like.
It was impossible for me to assess how much the mains treatment contributed to your systems sound, but not enough to overcome a loud 50hz hum from one channel, 15" bass drivers in the corner of a low-ceilinged echoic tunnel, or digital only sources compared with vinyl.
Not only have I never had a convincing demonstration of the benefits of mains, but none of my friends in audio consider it relevant. Some of them work for big big budget organisations who have no forum agenda and would look to maximise and optimise the performance of their equipment in sales demonstrations.
I think there are too many other things make a really important genuine difference, and Mains is a wicked mermaid luring sailors to their hifi doom.
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 12, 2015 16:10:24 GMT
Yes - I knew, but couldn't be arsed to edit. What's good enough for Roger Waters on his Animals album cover is good enough for me. And you're right on the other point. I think Sue turning 50 tomorrow has re-awoken my angst of 4 years ago. I am going to console myself by treating myself to that acoustic guitar I crave. The vendor's motto neatly sums up my feelings about turning 50 "Lifes too short to play a shitty guitar" (Not that my current acoustic is shitty - its just not as special as the Messiah) And life's too short to worry what people hear when they fiddle with bits of their HiFi that make less difference than the paint on the walls. As I pointed out to Chris, in a message, never mind buggering about with fuses (I also tried that since MCRU sent me some) - last Christmas I removed the National Grid and replaced it with a 3KVA generator lent by my ex-wife, whilst we had a power cut, and that made sod-all difference. But I like this forum, and the people on it, and wouldn't wish to cause offence. I will knuckle down to a few bar chords instead
|
|
|
Post by pinkie on Feb 11, 2015 8:58:54 GMT
This thread has been responsible for me loosing all interest in this forum, and feeling I have no common ground with this form of hifi tinkering. Of the fuse advocates, who fancies a challenge? I replace the fuses on 3 plugs - for different equipment items. The replacement might be the fuse that was in there (ie not a replacement) or it might be a B&Q special. A toss of a coin will decide. I seal the plugs with a tamper proof seal. You have as long as you like to tell me which way the coin toss went. Given every fuse changed has a dramatic impact, and some of you now have listening rooms the size of an aircraft hangar from using foo fuses, I would have thought I'd barely have time to put the kettle on before you knew which fuses were changed. Or not. Anyway - carry on having fun.
|
|