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Post by pinkie on Feb 22, 2018 11:27:59 GMT
Chris
I now understand from Martin that this is a subjectivist forum. Discussion of measurements are not welcome. The friendly forum but very selective as to acceptable topics. I further understand that the reason I (and not a few others, on this forum and in the wider world) are unable to hear some of the product benefits that others are able to hear, is simply due to my (our) hearing being defective, and/or our equipment being inadequate. No other explanation is possible or tolerated apparently. And discussion of the subject is offensive.
So. I'd just like to say my system sounded really really super last night. Better than any of yours (subjective, so acceptable) and with the most life like and realistic presentation, dynamics, and airy space around the instruments that it is possible to imagine. Better even than the live performance.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 22, 2018 11:10:22 GMT
Martin This is a thread about foo. ] Except that it was pointed out some time ago that the term is insulting and the author of the OP conceded that this might be the case. Which is why I was seeking an alternative term, but Martin appears not to like "Faith products"
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Post by pinkie on Feb 22, 2018 9:12:54 GMT
"My previous post asked what could be used as a non-pejorative term for foo..." Vapourware ? (It might be there, but not everyone sees it) The discontinuity of the censors hand. I had posted - the relevant part was removed by moderation which left the remainder of the post meaningless, so I deleted the post to avoid looking like I was insane
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Post by pinkie on Feb 22, 2018 8:47:39 GMT
Martin
This is a thread about foo. I respected your request to leave the audiophile fuse thread locked down to discussions by believers. As you pointed out, there are plenty of other threads to post on if you don't like this one. It seems a perfectly legitimate area for discussion in a forum about HiFi - and the post was directly relevant to the thread subject.
Your statement that a group of believers...
MOD: and that's where it stops. Group of believers? One more post of this kind, Richard, and you can go elsewhere.
No further warnings.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 22, 2018 7:21:28 GMT
My previous post asked what could be used as a non-pejorative term for foo since a discussion of the phenomena and its products becomes comically absurd if it is always necessary to find a PC description. It's like the term Hi-fi being deemed pejorative and wanting to talk about "that hobby associated with products which reproduce recorded music to either produce a preferred sound experience, often with more volume without distortion, but which literally is intended to be an accurate reproduction of the original source with the output bearing as near as possible a perfect but amplified copy of the original... "
It spoils the flow if you can't just say" Hi-fi "
In the light of Spicas post and wonkys post on the audiophile fuses thread, I wonder if the term" faith" products might not be the appropriate PC label for foo.
Despite Martins protests of atheism, the fuse (and other foo) phenomena is essentially similar to religious faith, as Spica pointed out.
There is no science to support the claimed hearing experiences of the proponents. Neither acceptable theory, nor experimental evidence. Indeed the experiences of proponents often directly contradict current scientific knowledge,.
As with religion, proponents of faith products propose that science cannot explain everything and extrapolate that self-evident truth to imply that fairly stable and established functioning and useful science is flawed, based only on their personal (sometimes collective} experiences.
And as with religion, it is wrong to challenge those experiences, although acceptable to question how they arise. When Martin, Mike or the Moon report that they hear music differently when they change the orientation of a fuse in the mains supply to equipment they are honestly sharing what is a deeply personal internal experience. One which is fundamentaly real to them. Just as when the congregation at my brother in laws church feel the presence of the Holy spirit during intense parts of the service, they are (collectively) experiencing something very real and personal and internal to them. Neither can or should be challenged. Both experiences are personal and internal and real, although incapable of mainstream explanation or demonstration.
My brother in law concedes he cannot bring God or Jesus to tea with me in the same way foo cannot (by definition) be objectively demonstrated. Should we refer to foo as faith products to be PC?
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 16:56:12 GMT
You know that old joke about "if the black box is the only part of a plane they expect to survive a crash then why don't they make planes of the same material?" Well, if these fuses contribute so much to the signal chain... Sorry, I've been resisting that one for days but finally had to surrender to my warped sense of humour. Jeez can you imagine building an aeroplane using some of the science on this thread. You wouldn't catch me flying in it.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 10:42:38 GMT
Of course Martin
From a sound quality point of view how is stranded cable in the fuse holder going to be better than a metal bar, when the pins on the plug are made of metal bars, so it is not cable either side of the fuse but metal bar on one side of it?
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 10:13:29 GMT
How is a copper bar too much of a mismatch versus a fuse and whatever material it's made of? I was commenting from a sound quality point of view (better that matching cable be used than a copper bar), not from a safety point of view. What are the pins of your plugs made from? Stranded cable?
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 10:12:38 GMT
And you have reason to believe the 16A MCB on the dedicated radial won't flip and do its job? Seriously, did anybody bloody say that? You need to READ what has been written and stop making assumptions before commenting further! You can't double protect. If the MCB is going to trip, chances are it will do so before the fuse gets a chance to blow.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:59:59 GMT
I think a copper bar is too much of a mismatch for the cables either side of it. I let this one go but I need to come back to it.... How is a copper bar too much of a mismatch versus a fuse and whatever material it's made of? Given there are views that the fuses can make a positive difference is it an assumption that the cabling either side is of a material closer to the make up of the fuse than it is of copper? Pardon my attempt at humour but this confuses me..... A good enough point. The implication is a copper bar is TOO much copper in the conducting path compared with stranded copper cable. Or the copper bar that is the pin on a BS1363 plug
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:57:50 GMT
And you have reason to believe the 16A MCB on the dedicated radial won't flip and do its job? Of course.... I was just presenting the irony of something not to standard and failing....... which is indeed its job. Sure. I don't think anybody has suggested that a fuse will not blow at the correct value just because it doesn't choose to meet BS. Nor even that it might explode when it blows or any other dangerous aspect. Merely that it would not comply with regulations. And some people will prefer not to deliberately breach UK regulations with regard to plugs and sockets.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:39:39 GMT
Good grief, what is it with this rather tedious focus on BS? Does the lack of BS suddenly make the fuse unsafe or liable to explode? Does every other country in the world refuse to use a fuse that is not BS marked? It's still a FUSE and is designed to PROTECT. A copper bar certainly will cause the cable to fail first, which could be quite catastrophic. Yea at the very worst its gonna blow.... and do its job And you have reason to believe the 16A MCB on the dedicated radial won't flip and do its job?
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:26:47 GMT
On the subject of protection, lets talk case fuses as well as plug fuses If I have a 2 amp fuse in my Quad 405 amp on the brown wire only, a short with a resistance of 120 ohms or less would cause that to blow. Presumably the designer feels that the load on the brown wire should never be less than 120 ohms and designed the protection accordingly. What current would flow through the brown wire if my Quad 405 were powered with balanced mains and there was a short of 120 ohms? Would the fuse blow? If the short was 60ohms and the fuse in the brown wire blew, would there still be a voltage inside the casework of the 405 If there was a short of 120 ohms between the blue wire and another point (ok - earth) which fuse would blow? Would there still be a voltage present inside the casework? Not if there were a double pole RCBO on the output of the BMU, both legs would always trip. Actually, whilst I endorse that arrangement, those RCBO's are unlikely to have the correct current protection to replace the internal case fuses. Unlikely as in "won't". They do however protect the cable, and in the event of a big enough short, properly cut all power inside the case too. The only way to get directly equivalent protection for the equipment from case fuses, is to modify the equipment to have fuses on brown and blue of the appropriate value to reflect the fact that each cable carries only half the current. Interestingly on this broad subject, France uses dual pole MCB's as well as RCD's everywhere. So if (as is likely) Martins HiFi spur only has single pole protection, it is not directly equivalent to the French system.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:22:02 GMT
I move on pretty quickly from reviewers who say the difference was night and day, I was blown away, my jaw hit the floor, gob-smacked or like lifting a veil. But the pièce de résistance - they were right there in the room in front of me. They need to see more live music as that's total BS. Ain't no Hi-Fi can do that. You know, mostly I'm very onside with those thoughts. Hyperbole is everywhere and meaningless. I do listen to a lot of live music. Sue's circle of friends are musicians, and we just enjoy gigs as a hobby. We are in the process of doing some simple recordings of self and Sue (acoustic guitar and vocals) as rehearsals and backup since my son would like her to sing at his wedding. First, note if we perform live the guitar would be miked and/or use its pickups, the main one of which is a fancy piezzo although mixed with a soundhole mike. So even that simplest arrangement is already not "Pure" acoustic but stuffed through a PA (probably with the wrong sort of fuse, fitted the wrong way round) Secondly, (and probably because live is rarely like listening to Sue sing choral works unmiked in a church or cathedral) there are times when some music does seem "in the room" and that would very much be my definition of what I am listening for on my type of system with some music Joan Armatrading would be one such artist on her simple arrangements. Alison Moyet on her Jazz covers another. With the quads - I get that illusion - strongly sometimes.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:12:26 GMT
As a side note I've found balanced mains improves the sound of my Lenco and Phono no end...I'm quite taken aback as it happens but it made no difference to my amp. Go figure. I don't think it would be impossible to figure, but not here. Do you visit the tent?
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:11:17 GMT
On the subject of protection, lets talk case fuses as well as plug fuses
If I have a 2 amp fuse in my Quad 405 amp on the brown wire only, a short with a resistance of 120 ohms or less would cause that to blow. Presumably the designer feels that the load on the brown wire should never be less than 120 ohms and designed the protection accordingly.
What current would flow through the brown wire if my Quad 405 were powered with balanced mains and there was a short of 120 ohms? Would the fuse blow? If the short was 60ohms and the fuse in the brown wire blew, would there still be a voltage inside the casework of the 405 If there was a short of 120 ohms between the blue wire and another point (ok - earth) which fuse would blow? Would there still be a voltage present inside the casework?
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Post by pinkie on Feb 21, 2018 8:05:46 GMT
Good grief, what is it with this rather tedious focus on BS? Does the lack of BS suddenly make the fuse unsafe or liable to explode? Does every other country in the world refuse to use a fuse that is not BS marked? It's still a FUSE and is designed to PROTECT. A copper bar certainly will cause the cable to fail first, which could be quite catastrophic. No - other countries like france use what is the equivalent of a copper bar with their 16A protected radials -and you seem to have a problem with that, although other countries find it safe The only problem with a copper bar is it is a breach of the regulations. So is using a fuse in a BS1363 plug which does not conform to BS1362 and say so on the fuse case. Honestly, its not difficult
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Post by pinkie on Feb 18, 2018 10:30:09 GMT
What's ruining the thread and the forum is some members refusal to observe our simple and long standing request to leave their old squabbles behind them when they post here. You shouldn't have needed to be reminded of that in this thread, Richard. I take offence Chris that your comment is not supported by the evidence, and therefore based on your own historical baggage with regard to your perceptions of my baggage, and that you are victimising me. I had not brought the subjects we don't talk about up until my post. That post did not bring up any baggage referenced to a dispute with the person we aren't going to talk about, or any thoughts I had about one of his products. My post was a comment about the fact that the place, person, and brand we don't talk about, was being bought up by others in their posts on the thread, and that was tiresome. Others on the thread I was reading were quite evidently referencing the place we don't want to talk about, which is presumably why, if I went back and look I could find Martins post about other people talking about the place and people we don't want to talk about and asking them not to. In the context of people talking about the people and place we all don't want to talk about, and have now been reminded not to, I noted that they didn't matter and weren't worth it, and other related points I won't repeat for fear of being accused of using a back door way to repeat a deleted comment, and related that impact (or lack of it) to the foo, which although an offensive term was the title of the thread, and the whole point of it . What we call thread "undrift" But thank you for interpreting that as me bringing in old baggage and availing yourself of the opportunity to patronise me about it.
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Post by pinkie on Feb 18, 2018 9:19:52 GMT
!
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Post by pinkie on Feb 18, 2018 7:49:03 GMT
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