spook
Rank: Soloist
Posts: 20
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Post by spook on Jan 17, 2019 17:18:38 GMT
Hi all. New to this site and have joined as it was recommended to me by someone on another similar site.. I'll be brief...
I have a dCS classic stack but I'm considering buying a used (7 year old), Ayre C-5xemp as a replacement. I've heard very good reports about the Ayre but before pulling the trigger I am curious to hear from anyone who has ever owned both, or heard both in similar systems and to hear their views. All opinions gratefully received.
BTW; I use an Ayre K-1xe preamp and Adams Gamma active speakers.
Anyone?
Thanks,
Steve. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 17:53:10 GMT
The Ayre sound is quite dry, nice but dry, the DCS is very matter of fact, though the older ones are not as clinical as the new stuff, the adams have plenty of balls.
Martin's Ayre which he has just sold, a lot more musicality about it, loses out in ultimate detail and staging, but it has other strengths you may find appealing.
Have had both many times overt the years, as with all things, home demo essential before parting with any funds imho.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 17, 2019 18:40:57 GMT
Tony is not far out although my Ayre was modded with the MP upgrade and also with Coherent PSU mods. I wouldn't describe it as dry, but it's certainly not warm. It's not as stark as the dCS kit, possibly not as detailed but it does have a hugely potent sound, dynamic and structural with loads of welly. It seriously makes music, which I supposed is why it stood out among a lot of cool High end players.
Whether you'd like it or not I could not say. What a shame you didn't post a couple of weeks ago as you could have had the chance to hear mine.
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spook
Rank: Soloist
Posts: 20
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Post by spook on Jan 17, 2019 20:53:16 GMT
Thanks for the responses and interesting observations. Yes, it is a shame I missed hearing your's Martin.
I used to have an esoteric SA10 which was very detailed but I found that dry and somewhat sterile. I didn't keep it long. I was warned that the dCS kit would be harsh and cool but I've always found it to be very neutral possibly erring on the side of warm. Perhaps I've just got used to it over time. BTW the C-1xe I'm looking at has been upgraded to 'mp' level and has had a recent service by an Ayre dealer. Does that (the mp upgrade) change the sound significantly? If so, in what way?
I have the Ayre K-1xe pre-amp which is fantastic but it doesn't have a remote. My dCS has a built in pre in the dac and obviously the C-1xe does not.If I go for the Ayre CD player I may consider getting a k-5 Evolution to replace the K-1xe. Is that likely to be a noticeable step backwards in sound quality? I know the K-1 was the flagship model but they are getting a bit old now and I wondered if the the newer K-5 technology has caught up sound-wise?
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Post by MartinT on Jan 17, 2019 21:16:03 GMT
The MP (Minimum Phase) upgrade was based on research first carried out by Meridian. It tries to remove digital pre-ringing, which sounds unnatural, by shifting it to all post-ringing, which sounds more natural to the ears. I found in practice it made transient strikes like drums sound more realistic but also had an unexpected beneficial effect on the soundstage. Here's a good illustration, MP gives you the 2nd waveform.  |
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spook
Rank: Soloist
Posts: 20
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Post by spook on Jan 17, 2019 21:33:17 GMT
Ok. What do the axes represent?
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Post by MartinT on Jan 17, 2019 21:35:31 GMT
X is time and Y is amplitude. Standard DAC decoding gives the top waveform, which is not representative of real-life transients. MP gives the second waveform, where the transient happens and then decays more naturally.
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spook
Rank: Soloist
Posts: 20
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Post by spook on Jan 17, 2019 21:53:30 GMT
Got it.
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spook
Rank: Soloist
Posts: 20
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Post by spook on Jan 17, 2019 21:55:54 GMT
Any ideas on my question about the preamps... ie K-1xe vs K-5 evolution?
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Post by MartinT on Jan 18, 2019 6:50:11 GMT
I'm a Pass chap and have owned three of their preamps. I'm afraid I don't know the Ayre ones at all.
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spook
Rank: Soloist
Posts: 20
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Post by spook on Jan 18, 2019 10:57:47 GMT
I'm a Pass chap and have owned three of their preamps. I'm afraid I don't know the Ayre ones at all. Yes, I can see where you are coming from. I previously had a Pass Aleph P which was a cracking premp. I very nearly went for a Pass X-1 prior to getting the Ayre K-1xe. |
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Post by MartinT on Jan 18, 2019 11:07:44 GMT
I've had an X-2, then an X-1 and now the XP-20 which is superb.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 18, 2019 21:58:30 GMT
It seems that even MP is not a one-size-fits-all solution to digital filters in a DAC. My limited understanding of this excellent thread on the WAM tells me that the decoding filter (linear phase, minimum phase, apodizing) should really be matched to the filter used when encoding at the ADC. So the playback filter you select is at best an informed guess and at worst completely random. Listen and choose! |
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spook
Rank: Soloist
Posts: 20
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Post by spook on Jan 19, 2019 10:35:10 GMT
It seems that even MP is not a one-size-fits-all solution to digital filters in a DAC. My limited understanding of this excellent thread on the WAM tells me that the decoding filter (linear phase, minimum phase, apodizing) should really be matched to the filter used when encoding at the ADC. So the playback filter you select is at best an informed guess and at worst completely random. Listen and choose! I read the article and I must confess that much of it goes over my head, however, the gist of it seems to be that using filters at playback to correct perceived (and genuine) imperfections can actually introduce a greater variance from the digital information gathered in the original recording. (Or something like that)? |
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Post by MartinT on Jan 19, 2019 11:32:33 GMT
It does indeed imply that.
All I can say is that MP improved the sound of the Ayre overall, so it's probably safe to say that it's a better compromise than linear phase. What is harder to understand is the difference between MP and Apodizing filters. There seem to be enthusiasts on both sides of that debate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2019 12:15:48 GMT
You are all wrong give me a brick wall anyway  |
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Post by MartinT on Jan 19, 2019 12:30:08 GMT
I'll be able to compare them soon, Tony, including a brick wall filter.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2019 12:48:12 GMT
I have one dac with thirteen filters from fir to a post rining surpressor do they make a difference yes it is massive absolutely no do they add extra harmonics that could perceptually give you a preference yes so fun you have a system which is not quite equalised then if may be a plus
For me the wadia digimaster provides the most enjoyable post shaped sounds if you dac does not have correct implementation of a reconstructed analog wave form imho
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