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Post by The Brookmeister on Apr 25, 2018 17:18:42 GMT
Supercaps have been around for years, fail to see what advantage they provide over a regulator other than being a new thing for power supplies?
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Post by MartinT on Apr 25, 2018 17:24:13 GMT
I finally found my AES XLR to phono adapter to allow me to use the Ayre as a disc transport. It worked immediately, not something I've experienced in the past. This time I RTFM'd and the section in the manual for S/PDIF says I have to change the rear DIP switches to enable it while the player is turned on, otherwise it doesn't sense the change. How very non-intuitive!
Playing a CD first (Mindy Smith again), it has all the trademarks of both the SEG (spacious soundstage, wonderful focus and detail) mixed in with the Ayre's typical authority. A great start. Laura Michelle Kelly's There Was a Time is a good song but a touch over-produced. The SEG makes better sense of it by calming down the harsh edges a little.
Time for some hi-res discs. First, Eric Clapton's Reptile. This one is 24/88 format and sounds detailed and pretty damned impressive. Next Fleetwood Mac's The Chain, a real treat in 24/96. It starts very multi-track and produced but the bass line in its intro is very grunty and makes the song what it is.
Then one of my prized discs, the DVD-A of Fragile by Yes in 24/96. Heart of the Sunrise is resolved in such detail that this familiar song sounds fresh and different, Bruford's drumming having amazing impact.
Returning to CD tells me that it's more about the recording than about resolution (bearing in mind how good Spotify sounds). I love what the SEG does with all my music, it just makes me keep on playing.
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Post by MikeMusic on Apr 25, 2018 17:41:59 GMT
This sounds good for me. Good old Rega put RCA, XLR, Toslink and Digital outputs on the Isis. What would be the favourite of those to output to my Caiman and later a SEG ?
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Post by stanleyb on Apr 25, 2018 17:44:19 GMT
Supercaps have been around for years, fail to see what advantage they provide over a regulator other than being a new thing for power supplies? You put your finger on the spot. You fail to see the advantage. The problem is that not many are as smart as me (hint, hint) to try and see if there are any advantages. So that's why I submitted my design for scrutiny at the recent ASBO in order for my peers to listen and give their own opinion on whether it was or wasn't better in a comprehensive listening test. My power supply was compared directly against two other very respected power supplies in order to eliminate bias.
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Post by The Brookmeister on Apr 25, 2018 19:01:22 GMT
Supercaps have been around for years, fail to see what advantage they provide over a regulator other than being a new thing for power supplies? You put your finger on the spot. You fail to see the advantage. The problem is that not many are as smart as me (hint, hint) to try and see if there are any advantages. So that's why I submitted my design for scrutiny at the recent ASBO in order for my peers to listen and give their own opinion on whether it was or wasn't better in a comprehensive listening test. My power supply was compared directly against two other very respected power supplies in order to eliminate bias. I think that is so funny, I CBA writing a comprehensive reply so good luck anyway.
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 25, 2018 20:26:05 GMT
Anyone wondering about getting a shock from a supercap. It's not the voltage that gets you, it's the current. i suggest you try licking the terminals on a car battery if you ever need reminding of this. A decent size super cap at 16v say 1F is more than capable of burning a hole in your hand if discharged incorrectly. @ brooksy. Super caps have a higher energy storage density than a capacitor and they charge faster than a battery. They tend to have higher ESR that lytics once you get past a few volts. Notably they do have lower leakage current. Of course they aren't designed for use as smoothing caps and they have greater electrical noise than the best integrated regulators. So like you I'm intrigued to see how Stanley has squared this cube. The Stack Exchange guys sum it up well electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/265992/can-we-use-supercapacitor-in-filter-circuits?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_rich_qa&utm_campaign=google_rich_qa
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Post by MartinT on Apr 25, 2018 20:48:55 GMT
I wonder if they're missing the point. Those comments were made two years ago and supercaps are on a steep development curve. The applications we're talking about (e.g. a SEG drawing about 100mA) are low current relative to the high energy store with an ESR that's still way lower than a typical larger can electrolytic. We know this because the instantaneous discharge current is potentially huge. Even though they are not designed for ripple eating, they do a pretty good job of it.
Even the 5.5V Tokins we're using inside the DAC are getting pretty old now but give a quite noticeable jump in sound quality in 5V applications around the DAC chip.
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 25, 2018 21:23:42 GMT
I doubt they're missing the point, they just aren't inventing a pointless one. They store and deliver charge, they have high density, moderate ESR and more electrochemical noise than the best regulator. There's no magic to them, it's just that their balance of size/capacity makes them unique in terms of where they can be used. Their properties don't make them any better for use in PSU's. If they did every man and their dog would use them. With all respect to Stan he's not an engineering genius who's found some magical implementation. He's just replaced a cap with a bigger capacity lower voltage cap.
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Post by stanleyb on Apr 25, 2018 22:03:58 GMT
With all respect to Stan he's not an engineering genius who's found some magical implementation. He's just replaced a cap with a bigger capacity lower voltage cap. I am not going to say much about the supercap PSU, and what makes my deisgn different, since I need the money from the sales. My main interest is that any owner can clearly hear the difference almost instantly, or they can have their money back. Any design secrets, real or imagine, I shall keep close to my chest.
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Post by Clive on Apr 25, 2018 22:32:49 GMT
Temple Audio are shipping class d amps with supercaps plus they will release a phono stage also with supercaps. Their implementation improves on there alreay high spec linear regs. I've heard the results and am impressed.
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 25, 2018 23:34:38 GMT
I'll wait for someone to release some peer reviewed measurements.
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Post by zappytheviking on Apr 25, 2018 23:47:51 GMT
Are they magical , probably not but something is going on. I have heard nice improvements just sticking them on DC leads. Here is my bit of speculation. Mind you, I am not a electronics genius, far from it, I do however find the effect I have heard interesting. My guess is they can handle sustained peak current draws better than an electrolytic. Maybe its just because they usually are higher capacitance in same size package, being able to provide superior decoupling with less space used. Perhaps they improve the performance of an average PSU since the load over time is smoothed out. This patent talks about increased resistive losses and bursts of ripple with peak current draw in standard PSU/battery and how a supercap smooths that out. In my mind that means savings and a better performing PSU. This probably is basic design that I am trying to wrap my head around. Now I really wish I was able to attend ASBO and hear what Stan had to say. I am sure he has made some smart minimalist design choices. If this unit gets even close to the performance of a 300£ LPSU for say ~100£, that would be a raging success.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 26, 2018 5:07:40 GMT
All I can say is I don't go placing an order against a prototype, price unseen, without being seriously convinced of its audio qualities. I am aware that I'm lucky to have it in my system for evaluation, but once you hear a SEG being driven this way you're hearing a DAC that easily rivals or beats ones well into four figures.
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Post by John on Apr 26, 2018 5:40:45 GMT
At the moment it is still not for sale I am sure people will compare with other PSU's when that changes and can make up there own minds then
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Post by stanleyb on Apr 26, 2018 6:55:34 GMT
It's not even about making up your mind. The audible difference is near instant. I am trying to build a prototype of a more generic one that can handle heavier loads at up to 12V. But I flogged off all the DACs I bought to compare against mine. So I shall probably need the help of people who have a different make of DAC that also uses an external 12V power supply.
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Post by John on Apr 26, 2018 7:15:40 GMT
I feel confident it will Stan as you have a great reputation for producing products at reasonable costs and for hitting well above their price point. It has already proved it performance at the ASBO I am also aware that others will be more sceptical until they try for themselves.
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Post by liffy99 on Apr 26, 2018 7:32:02 GMT
Barely understood a word 🙃
Is SEG an acronym - if so, what for ?
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Post by MartinT on Apr 26, 2018 7:35:22 GMT
The Caiman SEG is Stan's latest in a long line of great value DACs. This new prototype PSU enhances the SEG's performance substantially.
He did tell me what SEG stands for, but I've forgotten already!
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Post by naim1425 on Apr 26, 2018 7:46:53 GMT
The Caiman SEG is Stan's latest in a long line of great value DACs. This new prototype PSU enhances the SEG's performance substantially. He did tell me what SEG stands for, but I've forgotten already! martin just make one up !how about Special Edition Gator= seg.it would be interesting for someone to try the psu with an already super capped seg.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 26, 2018 7:51:36 GMT
Actually, I think that might be it!!
I've just sold my original Caiman with Gator add-on board, it was still performing admirably until I replaced it with an SMSL Q5 a couple of weeks ago.
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