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Post by dsjr on Apr 3, 2018 17:21:25 GMT
You can get seriously good reproducers of MUSIC without spending shedloads of dosh these days. However, there's the hobby side and people fortunate enough to spend loads of money on it keep the so-called Top End going and there are many firms making expensively packaged gear to furnish that need. Whether the internals costs merit the high price tags is meaningless as such customers seem to be encouraged to listen with their eyes (apologies, but I do believe it's true) - it looks great in a HiFi Tech kind of way so it must be good - funny thing is, that B&O, who started the whole bling-fi trend decades ago, are probably now making some of the best domestic gear *of this type* out there with more hi-tech inside than ever I reckon, yet they're now all but ignored I think by the audiophile fraternity... Given a deep wallet to indulge my hobby, I think I'd return to pro gear which at its best, puts all the money inside, the casework or cabinets designed for hard wear rather than a 'good sounding' appearance The best of this stuff allows you to hear to the very back of a mix or recorded venue and with a realistic dynamic range, as well as half decent tonality and musical involvement in my current opinion.
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Post by DaveC on Apr 3, 2018 17:22:22 GMT
I asked for a definition of an Audiophile, none given ! The best I can do: an audiophile is a music lover who wants to listen at the highest possible sound quality. So of my two examples, are either, none or both Audiophiles in your opinion Martin ??
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Post by dsjr on Apr 3, 2018 17:25:51 GMT
Dave, I honestly don't believe that many audiophiles are really music lovers. they buy all the fashionable stuff to listen to, but the gear is more important than anything.. Most men are tone deaf anyway according to research I read
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Post by DaveC on Apr 3, 2018 17:29:50 GMT
Dave, I honestly don't believe that many audiophiles are really music lovers. they buy all the fashionable stuff to listen to, but the gear is more important than anything.. Most men are tone deaf anyway according to research I read My big customer, who spent £1/4M with me 4 years ago and hasn't changed a single part? He worked with me on what was best for him. He does buy yards of records though. Me; I love HiFi, have a great £50K+ system, only ever change or try "anything" every 2-3 years, sometimes longer. Neither of us are interested or motivated to try or change anything. Martin, Dave, are either, none or both of us Audiophiles in each of your views ?? Dave
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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2018 17:33:15 GMT
So of my two examples, are either, none or both Audiophiles in your opinion Martin ?? I can't speak for your customer as I don't know whether he cares about sound quality. You I would say are an audiophile and music lover. My definition so no-one need agree!
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Post by dsjr on Apr 3, 2018 17:35:50 GMT
I used to be an audiophool (even worse), but no longer I feel...
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Post by DaveC on Apr 3, 2018 17:40:20 GMT
So if I loved music, had a nice system, and played with bits all the time would I still be "an audiophile and music lover."
In which case it would make no difference if I played with bits or I did not play with bits? You can see the anomaly here ?
Dave
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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2018 17:49:58 GMT
I would say the operative phrase is 'nice system' which suggests you are interested in sound quality.
Without it, you are a music lover but not an audiophile.
EDIT: you can still play with your bits if you like!
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Post by DaveC on Apr 3, 2018 17:51:29 GMT
I would say the operative phrase is 'nice system' which suggests you are interested in sound quality. Without it, you are a music lover but not an audiophile Agreed, so someone with "a nice" system who fiddles constantly or even just every 6 months or so, what are they ? Dave
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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2018 18:09:07 GMT
An audiophiddler?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 18:10:03 GMT
Going back to the original question, it was asking when s an audiophile NOT a music lover. I'd say the answer to that may well be "never".
To me, the main difference emerging is that enjoyment of music is conditional upon good sound to some, and less so to others. There's also the enjoyment and appreciation of the hardware for some and again less so for others.
I genuinely don't see someone who loves music unconditionally and who has no great interest in the hardware as somehow more "worthy" than those of the opposite persuasions. People everywhere seem to be mildly offended by the concept, which I find puzzling.
Look at those audiophiles and music lovers who enjoy car driving. Loads of the same people, wouldn't be seen dead in a Korean 3 door hatchback with plastic dashboard and door cards, yet they apply a different logic to music than they do something like driving, I don't know of many people who claim to love driving but would be happy being on the M25 in a Smartcar.
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Post by julesd68 on Apr 3, 2018 18:30:10 GMT
I don't think being an audiophile means you are constantly trying to improve your system. Not to be confused with box-swapper!
I spent a few years box swapping but now I have a sound I really enjoy I have a very settled system and more interested in hunting down vinyl.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 18:34:01 GMT
Another question: Is there a material differnce between a constant DIY fiddler, a regular tweaks/accessories buyer and a box-swapper? The latter two seem to get a lot of stick whilst the first category appears to get constant validation and praise. Aren't they all "fiddlers" in one way or another?
Each actually gains useful knowledge too IMO.
1 The DIYer learns how circuits and components affect music reproduction. 2. The tweaker learns how to optimise their setup and room. 3. The box swapper gets to find out what they like and also what combinations work well.
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Post by Mr Whippy on Apr 4, 2018 0:56:36 GMT
When is an Audiophile not a Music Lover? Isn't that obvious? Surely, it's when they make their system Master and the music becomes a secondary "function". An Audiophile is easy to spot. They'll have one of these in their bathroom:
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Post by steveeb on Apr 4, 2018 10:05:31 GMT
As a self confessed Audiophiddler I really should be on a register so that Music Lovers can avoid my enthusiasm to maximise their system's performance when they are quite content listening to it
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Post by Clive on Apr 4, 2018 10:33:28 GMT
We probably look at audiophile vs music lover from our own perspectives so here's my analysis of my own traits.
As I mentioned previously I feel I'm both an audiophile and music lover depending on how the mood takes me. Last night I went to see the Jethro Tull 50th Anniversary gig, the sound was not audiophile territory but I enjoyed it.
Like many of us I used to get a bit wrapped up in the latest cables and stardust to improve my system. However, being reasonably handy with a soldering iron I never got into box swapping because I could tweak the sound of my system myself. Quite early on I decided that it's better to start out with something decent and use that as a basis for my tweaks. As I became more experienced, or is that cynical....my tweaking slowed down. I grew to know what was worth doing and what wasn't worth doing. I have a few very different amplifiers, each with its own signature. I've tended to swap these around to give me some sonic variety in presentation which suits certain genres. Sometimes the system will draw me to play a genre or I'll want to listen to a genre and select the best matching amplifier. I may also just not give a toss a play what I want on the system I have setup.
Mostly my system philosophy is to use relatively low to mid priced kit for the best bang-for-the-buck. The few normally eye-wateringly expensive pieces of kit I have I managed to acquire at sane prices.
I'm most likely to be in the mood of being music lover mid to late evening playing any music but quite often it'll be be-bop. There are times when I'll play 78s loving the immediate and vibrant music.
That's me then....sometimes I'll analyse my system and sometimes I'll be enthralled by the music.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 4, 2018 10:48:03 GMT
Sometimes the system will draw me to play a genre or I'll want to listen to a genre and select the best matching amplifier. I find this really interesting. I don't do it as I hate messing with my system when it's on song and I've always striven to make the system universal for my music playing. However, I find it fascinating that you can select an amplifier and match it to genres like that.
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Post by Clive on Apr 4, 2018 11:14:42 GMT
Sometimes the system will draw me to play a genre or I'll want to listen to a genre and select the best matching amplifier. I find this really interesting. I don't do it as I hate messing with my system when it's on song and I've always striven to make the system universal for my music playing. However, I find it fascinating that you can select an amplifier and match it to genres like that. I don't try to find a single system "solution" but I do have in mind a setup which is the most neutral and works well for all genres. My dilemma is always resolution vs tonality & musical flow. If I'm playing Kraftwerk / The Man-Machine I'll get the best sound from my 70W CLass D amp or my Philips 100W Black Tulip. If I want to play 50s / 60s be-bop those amps do well but 300B SE or EL84 SE add a pleasant euphony at the expense of resolution - the effect is more unctuous sound, the instruments sound more real and the music flows. Between the 300B and EL84 there are big differences too. There's also a Quad 306 but that lives mainly with the 65" TV. Not only do I align amps with genres but also mood. Do I want an intensive and active listening experience at that moment or do I want to be relaxed and chilled? I decide and choose my weapon but I'm not constantly doing this, 70% to 80 of the time I'll be running the Class D amps. I've reached a point where a single power amp change is all I need to tailor my listening experience to genre and mood. I suppose I don't like being painted into a corner - ie just a single presentation style; I like options - much as we choose music to match or change our mood.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 4, 2018 12:30:59 GMT
Thanks for that. I make wide demands of my system and it generally delivers well, while still favouring female voice over all else for sheer realism. However, asking it to play Bach organ such as A Musical Offering (which I've been playing of late), or the huge massed voices of Durufle's Requiem, is a very different ask from pounding out the tight bass lines in Yello's Touch or the country-rock guitar of Mindy Smith or even the highly emotionally-charged Beth Gibbons of Portishead singing Roads.
Thinking about it, it probably explains why it's taken me so long to arrive at one system that does it all, because I play so many different genres of music.
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Post by docfoster on Apr 7, 2018 7:28:27 GMT
In places this thread reads like an expression of the human instinct to establish hierarchies of virtue (music lover = good, aspitational, pride-worthy; audiofile = bad, deluded, shameful). I hope that everyone finds their own unique balance between these two equally worthy pursuits. ;-)
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