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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2018 10:35:09 GMT
This post comes from one that Tim made, stating that there is a difference between an audiophile and a music lover. He suggested that an audiophile uses music merely as a 'test signal' (his words). I hope Tim doesn't mind but I thought this is worthy of wider debate as it has cropped up on numerous occasions here and on other forums.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 11:05:07 GMT
Good topic. It always helps to hear how others perceive the world. There's probably a whole spectrum of opinion on music and the quality of its reproduction. I suspect I might be towards the "Audiophile" end of it.
As I said earlier, if the sound produced isn't throughly enjoyable, then I'm not interested in hearing music. Unpleasant sound is "noise" to me, and is essentially no different to sirens, buzzers, annoying voices, traffic etc. I also want music to stimulate me. "Pipe and slippers" kit just isn't for me because the music doesn't move me.
I don't want to hear music distorted through a mobile phone or a small transistor radio. I don't want to hear it through a bar or shop PA system either. I'm also not interested in standing amongst drunks making fools of themselves and hearing a live performance in a bad acoustic through a poor PA system.
In comfortable surroundings, with company and music programme I choose, through hifi items that please me is the only way I want to hear music. There's also a part of me that loves and appreciates the design and build of the hifi. Its hard for me to imagine using only my hearing to appreciate anything. I'm therefore only interested in owning and using kit that pleases me in these areas. Computer audio or things like Cambridge Audio or Chinese T amps are pointless to me because their presence displeases me and would render listening pointless. I'd regard them as a stain on the overall experience.
I should add that I don't regard where anyone sits on this spectrum as "right" or "wrong". Whatever feels good for you is all that matters. I don't feel that my likes and dislikes are any more or any less valid than anyone else's. If anyone thinks I'm not a "true" music lover, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. As long as I do what makes me happy, why would I care?
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Post by ChrisB on Apr 3, 2018 12:28:21 GMT
I think you might be able to create a scale which has, on one axis, the number of test recordings owned. Not music, but the ones with test tones and "...now I am in the left hand channel" type tracks.
Obviously, unless you build gear, owning an oscilloscope will put you way over to the far end of the scale and into the red zone!
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Post by karatestu on Apr 3, 2018 12:31:17 GMT
I have read Tim's post on the fuse thread and thought I would comment here.
I think Tim is on to something there. It is all too easy to be constantly listening for changes after something has been tweaked. People are guilty of homing in on one aspect of the sound and commenting on that rather than the whole picture. There are some people and I would class them as audiophiles who crave the next "difference". They more often than not write using magazine reviewer speak with no mention of the music.
I have been guilty of the above myself but I am slowly training myself to stop doing it, with great success I might add. When I think back to my youth when I was just getting in to music seriously I did not care about the replay equipment yet I still got those hair on the back of the neck moments and was in awe of what I was hearing. The system was very cheap and ordinary. I remember discovering new bands for the first time - Led Zep, Pink Floyd, The Doors. I liked the music because of the effect it had on me not what I was listening to it through. I appreciated the musicians as the best I had ever heard and it made me want to become better at the instrument I played. We enthused about the music not the sound quality.
Where it all went wrong was when the replay equipment started to be thought about and I had more money. The obsessional feelings soon started to mount, I upgraded the equipment (or so I thought) and ended up in a constant upgrade / tweaking frenzy. This effected how I listened to the music. I started listening to things in isolation - bass, mid range, high frequencies. I should have been listening to the whole, the interplay between musicians and how it was making me feel.
I now concentrate on how that band or artist are making me feel. I want to be in that room with them, know how many takes it took to record it, were they all in a room together or separated, were the band still interested in the songs not just going through the motions, did the drummer have a squeaky stool, had they just had an argument before recording it.
It has to be said that simplifying my diy efforts has brought me to a wonderful new place. Removing over complications and unneeded components has brought me closer to the music - the emotional feelings I have and the irresistible urge to dance with my 4 year old daughter on a cheap system . I did not realise the effect some things have on musical enjoyment e.g phase changing components, wiring looms, capacitive coupling. I have gone back to recordings that I used to think were boring and lacking dynamics with mediocre musicians. I was wrong in a lot of those thoughts.
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Post by dsjr on Apr 3, 2018 12:43:42 GMT
Speaking as someone who's been on both sides of the fence, I can say myself that I can enjoy music played on almost anything within reason and in fact the bulk of my listening is in my geriatric Focus jalopy (older than a banger), the stereo in which was poor even in 2001 when the car was made - I was spoiled by the sound system in the then Golf for a while, but the car was too small for us and my wife didn't like the Bora saloon of this era. Coming indoors and having the chance to play the main stereo is a luxury for me, but again, it's the *music* that rules (I could get very depressed if I bothered about fine-tuning the 'sound' as I wouldn't know where to start frankly and the expensive treatments and add-ons spoken of here recently don't cure the fundamental errors in the system in any case). My left ear has months of good behaviour and then the eczema and itching starts, followed by inflammation if I'm rough with it, so nothing then sounds any good until it's better So, for this tired old audiophool, I leave the sonics alone as best as possible as for me, utter madness and tail-chasing results in my experience. I have two stereo's using very different components and both entertain me and get me listening to the musicians and on a good day, marvelling at how the mixes were done. Over this weekend, I played something and noticed guitar parts and background melodies and harmonies in an album I'd never noticed before, not in the ATC days and certainly never in the Linn/Naim ones before and although I 'feel' the Music differently to the hugely 'loud capable' ATC's I once loved, I hear little musical things that once went unnoticed before....
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Post by Slinger on Apr 3, 2018 12:56:12 GMT
CAUTION! Gross oversimplification follows in 3...2...1...
In his (or her) prime listening space -
The music lover can accept that the music is wonderful, even though there might be improvements to be made to his or her system. He can enjoy his music on a system which the audiophile would spend hours trying to "help" the music lover "improve".
The audiophile can accept that the music is wonderful, but can't stop thinking about how to tweak his system and how much more wonderful he could make it. The music lover could enjoy the music played on the audiophile's system without feeling the need to "help" the audiophile, except in his choice of music, obviously.
Me, I'm just a lawnmower. You can tell me by the way I walk.
[EDIT - for something that just occurred to me]
It could, perhaps, be the difference between hearing with one's head, or one's heart.
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Post by DaveC on Apr 3, 2018 13:07:15 GMT
It depends on how you define an Audiophile ? How are they defined for the purpose of this thread ?
I can tell you that a customer who spent £1/4M with me 4 years ago is not one and hasn't changed a single part. He does buy yards of records though.
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 13:24:17 GMT
I agree with Dave C that the definition of an Audiophile doesn't necessarily mean someone always chopping and changing. I also think Stu makes some interesting points about constant evaluation. I've been to the "place" he describes and the best way out of there was to forget A-B comparisons. They led me astray more often than not and only fuelled dissatisfaction. I just live with something now and if it makes me happy, it stays in situ.
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Post by ChrisB on Apr 3, 2018 14:23:04 GMT
More labels!
I love music. I am interested in how it is reproduced. I like to learn about old gear. I like to own several systems. I can enjoy music played on almost anything (except bagpipes) or any system. It's two years or more since I made a big purchase for my main system. I have spent infinitely more money on music than kit in the last five years. I am one of the owners of this forum.
So...am I a music lover, or an audiophile?
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Post by MikeMusic on Apr 3, 2018 14:30:11 GMT
I listen to music for hours every day. Love it, won't do without it.
My listening enjoyment has increased considerably in the past few years as I upgraded boxes and accessories. If you listen to music on any system and you enjoy it then fine. Want to enjoy it more ? Open ears and eyes, dispense with ego and see what you can do. Often for not a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 15:18:06 GMT
Audiophiles display OCD traits, they also have limited music collections which they feel 'enhance' the sound they obtain form their systems. They more frequently than not make the point of how much a piece of equipment costs.
True music lovers appreciate the music for what it is, not how the PRESENTATION aspects of the sound are perceived, they also have a broad spectrum of music, as opposed to just classical /Jazz / female vocals and are not to fussed if the recording is A++ or not after all good music is just that good music.
Most genuinely music lovers I deal with have a life long association with music and have respectable collections of 3-5K worth of CD's or Vinyl. However a true music lover will purchase the music on which ever format he or she feels gives them the greatest pleasure.
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Post by Clive on Apr 3, 2018 16:06:14 GMT
Talk of interplay (karatestu) brings up a related topic. I listen for interplay but find that it often doesn't exist the way it used to. Bands who record as individual musicians and worse still manipulate the sound later prevent interplay. It's one of my bugbears with modern recording methods....of course this doesn't always apply, classical and jazz being more whole band oriented.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 16:28:36 GMT
For me, an audiophile is always tweaking or adding an additional widget to his system to “improve” the sound. A music lover will turn the system on, play some music and spend the tweak/widget money on more music or going to concerts and other live performances.
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Post by Clive on Apr 3, 2018 16:33:37 GMT
I believe I'm both an audiofile and music lover but not at the same time. Different mindsets depending on my mood.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2018 16:47:55 GMT
Reading all the comments so far, it's clear to me that we each define 'audiophile' differently, even though there is little variation in the term 'music lover'. Here's my take: - I've been playing with music reproduction ever since I modified my parents' Dansette at the age of 13, so that I could listen to their boxed set of Beethoven records over headphones from my Dad's metal detector.
- My first hi-fi system was all self-built as I couldn't afford built items.
- I have a collection of thousands of CDs and records and still buy hard media, using streaming for evaluation and fill-in.
- I have 4 test discs, so <0.1% of my music collection.
- I spent years building my system to where it is. I'm very happy with it and it has been pretty stable since I moved house. My last big upgrade was the room.
- I love going to live concerts, but I go to more classical than rock these days.
- I don't mind tweaks where they improve performance, but I no longer feel the need to go looking for them.
- I listen to music formally and informally at home, at work, in the car. I use Spotify all the time when I'm away from my collection.
- I could not live without music.
I am a music lover AND an audiophile. To me, they are not mutually exclusive.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 16:55:08 GMT
That's a really interesting thought, Clive. There have been times in my life when I've been the person Cagey describes as an Audiophile. Always looking or something else. Having a few days of happiness at any improvement before something about the sound began to niggle.
Others where I've been very happy and couldn't be bothered to try anything different even if it was served to me on a plate. The difference maker has been my level of satisfaction with the way the system entertains me. Usually the only thing that has set me wanting to change a great system has been a house move, of which I've had too many. Had I not moved, I can think of at least 4 systems that I would not have changed. There has also been the odd time when I've bought something more expensive and beautifully built just because I coveted it and this has upset a balanced system.
Others will be different and they will find the motivation to experiment. For me, it's almost always been due to something not being right with my current system. When I'm really happy, I tend not to swap. My current main system hasn't changed in a year and probably won't unless it fails to please in a new home.
Edit: I should add that I don't t own any test discs and never have. I don't understand what purpose they serve. A system built to play music is "tested" when you play your records and CDs on it. If you like it, then it's passed the test.
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Post by DaveC on Apr 3, 2018 17:10:18 GMT
I asked for a definition of an Audiophile, none given !
My big customer, who spent £1/4M with me 4 years ago and hasn't changed a single part? He worked with me on what was best for him. He does buy yards of records though.
Me; I love HiFi, have a great £50K+ system, only ever change or try "anything" every 2-3 years, sometimes longer.
Neither of us are interested or motivated to try or change anything.
Are either of us Audiophiles ?
Dave
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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2018 17:18:35 GMT
I asked for a definition of an Audiophile, none given ! The best I can do: an audiophile is a music lover who wants to listen at the highest possible sound quality.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 3, 2018 17:20:31 GMT
I should add that I don't t own any test discs and never have. I don't understand what purpose they serve. I find them useful for setting up a room and for speaker positioning. Then I put them away again, usually for years.
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Post by dsjr on Apr 3, 2018 17:20:54 GMT
You can get seriously good reproducers of MUSIC without spending shedloads of dosh these days. However, there's the hobby side and people fortunate enough to spend loads of money on it keep the so-called Top End going and there are many firms making expensively packaged gear to furnish that need. Whether the internals costs merit the high price tags is meaningless as such customers seem to be encouraged to listen with their eyes (apologies, but I do believe it's true) - it looks great in a HiFi Tech kind of way so it must be good - funny thing is, that B&O, who started the whole bling-fi trend decades ago, are probably now making some of the best domestic gear *of this type* out there with more hi-tech inside than ever I reckon, yet they're now all but ignored I think by the audiophile fraternity... Given a deep wallet to indulge my hobby, I think I'd return to pro gear which at its best, puts all the money inside, the casework or rcabinets designed for hard wear rather than 'good sounding' appearance
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