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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 13:06:31 GMT
This one has been puzzling me for years, but I'm leaning towards an understanding so I thought I'd start a thread on it.
OK, so you get a new piece of kit (to you at least) and it sounds a bit bright, thin, shouty or whatever. You let it warm up and it blossoms into something rather finer. Obviously it's run in or burn in at work........ Or is it you that's doing the running in? Does the sound change or is it your perception? I'm coming to the conclusion that it's mostly the latter. We tend to adjust and our brains filter out many of the minor niggles until we cease not to notice them.
Why have I come to think this is the most likely reason? Well, when I've come to change items or move to a new listening room, the comparison seems to highlight similar traits I heard before "run in". Also, I rarely buy new, so run in of used products is a less likely scenario.
What about others? Is run-in as significant as some claim, or is it more perception? Interested to hear your thoughts....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 13:12:02 GMT
This one has been puzzling me for years, but I'm leaning towards an understanding so I thought I'd start a thread on it. OK, so you get a new piece of kit (to you at least) and it sounds a bit bright, thin, shouty or whatever. You let it warm up and it blossoms into something rather finer. Obviously it's run in or burn in at work........ Or is it you that's doing the running in? Does the sound change or is it your perception? I'm coming to the conclusion that it's mostly the latter. We tend to adjust and our brains filter out many of the minor niggles until we cease not to notice them. Why have I come to think this is the most likely reason? Well, when I've come to change items or move to a new listening room, the comparison seems to highlight similar traits I heard before "run in". Also, I rarely buy new, so run in of used products is a less likely scenario. What about others? Is run-in as significant as some claim, or is it more perception? Interested to hear your thoughts.... My bet would be it's almost certainly your perception that changes. If hifi kit really changed by being run-in, then the manufacturer would do that before it left the factory if they had any sense.
Running in of cables is codswallop, designed to prevent you sending them back due to buyer's remorse.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 22, 2016 13:50:12 GMT
Adapting to a system is something we all do, even when listening to a lowly car system or radio. However, I do not believe that we fool ourselves so readily when we are concentrating. I have been convinced several times over the years of very noticeable component running-in (the Sony SCD-1 was astounding in this respect) as well as cable running-in.
A few nights ago, I disturbed the supply to my preamp for 20 minutes while repositioning its stand. It sounded a tiny bit congested at first, leading me to think I'd done something wrong. However, it went over the next hour, back to exactly the sound I'm used to hearing. So warm-up and settling is important, too.
Is it just my perception? No, there have been too many times when I have not had any 'expectation bias' but I've heard it anyway.
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Post by MikeMusic on Nov 22, 2016 14:03:27 GMT
I'm convinced something happens when the kit has been on for around an hour.
There also seems to be an improvement in sound as new kit gets older
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 14:07:17 GMT
I hoped you'd chip in, Martin. Having recently moved, you're in an ideal position to comment. Nothing like an entirely new room to shake things up. I've moved far more times than is healthy: 23? 24? Probably more but I'm losing count. I've always found my existing kit to sound worse on unpacking. You've had the opposite experience and I'm delighted for you. It's this repeated experience of hearing things I've loved sound so much worse that's influenced my take on this subject. I live in hope of one day taking my hifi to a new home and hearing it actually sound better. If I maintain my habit of moving, I may get anther 20 chances before I'm done
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 14:18:38 GMT
I'm convinced something happens when the kit has been on for around an hour. There also seems to be an improvement in sound as new kit gets older I have heard some clear inmprovenents from Naim and also my beloved KSA 50. Not sure about the rest, but with these, it was irrefutable. My biggest ever hifi regret is selling that KSA 50. One day I know I will have another: Not the "S" version (which wasn't the same amp) nor the KSA 80 or 100 which were dire. I've never heard cable burn in though. I have heard speaker drivers open up, but only new (or newly reformed) drivers.
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Post by MikeMusic on Nov 22, 2016 14:21:07 GMT
I've heard cables get better. I'm sure I also heard the new cable in the walls get better after the house was refurbed. I knew the sound was better and that was the only possibility. Unless I'd been slipped a placebo
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 14:26:28 GMT
That goes back to the age old question- what happens to the cable to make it change?
My money is on the answer "Nothing. It is your Brain that changes".
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Post by MartinT on Nov 22, 2016 14:41:48 GMT
I've always found my existing kit to sound worse on unpacking. Time powered up played an important part. The kit sounded a bit rough and one-dimensional when fired up after being stone cold for the best part of two weeks. It took time to improve, but of course that was mixed in with gradually setting the room furnishings up. Even so, there is no doubt that warm-up or 'settling' played an important part in things. It's why the only item I power off is the power amp. I leave source components and the preamp running as they take so much longer to come on song.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 22, 2016 14:45:22 GMT
To go back to the Sony SCD-1 (their battleship SACD player), it's the component that took the longest to run-in of anything I have ever owned. I'd had plenty of warning from other owners that it needed "at least 300 hours" of running. It really did, and went from a so-so player to quite superb on CDs and really outstanding on SACDs.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 14:48:00 GMT
I can understand that as there are components that need to settle in. What I don't understand is how a cable changes - especially an interconnect - with use.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 14:55:34 GMT
Maybe Colin can comment on components and how they react over time
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Post by MikeMusic on Nov 22, 2016 16:22:52 GMT
Paul McGowan from PS Audio did a bit on cables settling in Seemed to make good sense.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 16:38:31 GMT
Other people have done bits on it being a myth. It would be interesting to perform an experiment with a used cable, and an unused cable of the same type in a blind test, or better still, measure the differences.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 17:06:13 GMT
The thing I keep coming back to is that used items tend to produce the same results when they are new to me. Even used items which I'm familiar with seem to do the same when taken to a new room. That's why I feel it's usually me doing the running in.
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Post by John on Nov 22, 2016 21:21:51 GMT
I think the best way is compare a new product with one that has the required hours in I had equipment in the past that no amount of living in could I adjust to the sound I have had NU-vista modifed by audiocom with a superclock and power supplies etc with black gates that took quite awhile to come on song A good example was a pair 12p Alpairs used in open baffle, a lot of the drums where missing during the burn in period but after a good few hundred hours they were there as clear as day I had other components that just sounded good straight away and others that were a backward step So in answer to the question I think it depends on the equipment and how it works in your system, yes it can take time to adjust to a new sound but sometimes a equipment needs to be played before it sounds at its best. I gues the time this was at it most extreme was with the Hawthornes. My intial thought for the first 20mins what boy this is awful. I then started to get good sounds but gradual improvements lasted over a year
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Post by MartinT on Nov 23, 2016 6:36:44 GMT
Even cables are different in their burn-in characteristics: Yannis cables are good from the word go; the NVA TIS didn't take too long; Coherent take a little time to get there; Kimber cables take an age to burn-in.
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