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Post by MartinT on Jul 4, 2014 8:55:48 GMT
The market was a closed shop. Only the very bravest Linn stockist (I can think of 2) would also stock PT, because of Linn "pressures". So trying to get an A:B comparison of the decks was nearly impossible. The beauty of the stunt was that once you had defined the Linn sound as "accurate" by definition, anything else other than a "me too" copy wasnt. I knew I didn't want a Linn, but I too was influenced by the prevailing forces. I ended up buying a Roksan Xerxes with SME IV. It was a mistake, as I was to discover down the road when the top plate started sagging and I could never get things properly lined up. Had I gone the Japanese direct drive route and bought the Pioneer PL-71 I fancied, I would have saved hordes of money and acquired a supremely reliable deck. We live and learn... |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 4, 2014 8:59:04 GMT
Edit - in hifi it matters not a jot , but if you are to have a coherent epistemological and ontological theory then you simply cannot be both as they are mutually exclusive . Anthony Giddens did try to marry the two and this was of course appropriated by Blair and Brown and became the third way .
I parsed those sentences several times and got nowhere. I must do some looking up! |
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Post by ChrisB on Jul 4, 2014 9:04:37 GMT
I was once in need of a new pair of speakers and went to several dealers to see what was available locally (or as local as any hifi dealer is in rural sw-Scotland). A certain dealership essentially told me they wouldn't sell me speakers, but that I should replace my turntable first. My Gyro/Zeta/Koetsu was not good enough and an LP12/LVX/Basik would be far and away better. Only after that would I be allowed to consider changing the speakers. An interesting comment that had a rather profound effect on me - rather the opposite one to the response they were seeking. That's even worse than my experience. Did you reveal the 'profound effect' to them? The utter disregard for the needs of the customer (needs, not whims) astonished me and I told them so. Their loss - the speakers I bought cost a good bit more that the deck they tried to flog me and the dealer down the road who sold them to me took a further ~£2.5 k from me over the next couple of years. I always did, and still do have, a high regard for the things that the Sondek does best but it's not for me. |
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Post by pinkie on Jul 4, 2014 9:17:06 GMT
Edit - in hifi it matters not a jot , but if you are to have a coherent epistemological and ontological theory then you simply cannot be both as they are mutually exclusive . Anthony Giddens did try to marry the two and this was of course appropriated by Blair and Brown and became the third way .
I parsed those sentences several times and got nowhere. I must do some looking up! I think I'll man up, suck it up, and learn to struggle through life without a coherent epistemlogical and ontological theory. It'll be tough, but I managed to kick Spinoza...  |
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Post by ChrisB on Jul 4, 2014 9:29:56 GMT
When I bought my Gyrodec, it was generally regarded as an executive toy, only for looks and not for high quality reproduction. It sounded better to me than all the others that I tried, including the Pink Anniversary, I'm afraid Richard. It took a while, but the Gyro eventually garnered some respect for its abilities and I'm no longer considered to be mad for owning one. (Of course, I am actually barking mad, but my choice of TT has no connection with that).
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Post by Pinch on Jul 4, 2014 9:37:34 GMT
Thanks for the contributions chaps! Some interesting stuff - particularly useful to have a little more insight into the history surrounding the dispute. in hifi it matters not a jot , but if you are to have a coherent epistemological and ontological theory then you simply cannot be both as they are mutually exclusive . Anthony Giddens did try to marry the two and this was of course appropriated by Blair and Brown and became the third way . Interesting; in part it's the onotological/epistemological commitments entailed by the positions that I'm interested in. Could you elaborate, DQ, on what you take these to be? |
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Marco
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Post by Marco on Jul 4, 2014 10:04:00 GMT
Edit - in hifi it matters not a jot , but if you are to have a coherent epistemological and ontological theory then you simply cannot be both as they are mutually exclusive . Anthony Giddens did try to marry the two and this was of course appropriated by Blair and Brown and became the third way .
I parsed those sentences several times and got nowhere. I must do some looking up! Indeed. Unfortunately, such is the level of blinkeredness shown on some forums whenever the subject of Linn or Naim is raised - it’s obvious that the brainwashing of the 'flat earth years' has still left its mark today. However, as has been pointed out to me by a friend, how 'indoctrinated' you were by it at the time is directly proportional to how much you were exposed personally to the brainwashing... Marco. |
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 4, 2014 10:27:55 GMT
OK I try again. This is not about words it is about people and how they try to dominate opinion for their own ego reasons. And as DQ says it is a problem everywhere especially in politics. My point is that when you get dominant objectivists like ***** ******* at wigwam and dominant subjectivists like ***** at AoS then there is little point entering into serious discussion with them as all they are in reality talking about is themselves. My weapon when I am allowed to use it in dealing with them is just taking the piss, as any form of meaningful communication is largely impossible. Though I must admit the latter is far better now and may be learning at last, but others will take over. It is a continuous process needing continual vigilance from the egotist police.
This fitted perfectly into the point of my post as we see the same thing pre internet via the paper magazines and the retailers. Self appointed largely knowledgeless egotists who's purpose is thought domination and to remove choice. OK a few of you saw through it but most people were just simply ripped off, and many are still in the same trap or frame of mind as a visit to PFM or even more so the manufacturers forums will show.
I see it as one of my jobs too provide warning and heads-up to the process happening all over again, but now on forums it involves industry people spamming and activating shills for overt and covert promotion of latest flavour of the month products. ** cable is a classic example as a year or two ago it was shilled and spammed into a FOTM, especially by a member here so I wont name, yet now look at the forum classifieds most of the sheep are now selling!! what a pointless exercise in futility.
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Post by Pinch on Jul 4, 2014 10:45:07 GMT
Hi Richard, not that I disagree with anything you've said, but it's somewhat tangential to the question that I'm interested in, which more concerns the conceptual underpinnings of the positions themselves, than the various ills that those positions are put to, and the (no doubt illicit) interests that they've been made to serve in the hi-fi press and forums (though I take your point that such uses should be guarded against). I was hoping you'd have something to say on this, since your own forum includes the label for one of these positions in its title.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 11:11:25 GMT
OK I try again. This is not about words it is about people and how they try to dominate opinion for their own ego reasons. And as DQ says it is a problem everywhere especially in politics. My point is that when you get dominant objectivists like ***** ******* at wigwam and dominant subjectivists like ***** at AoS then there is little point entering into serious discussion with them as all they are in reality talking about is themselves. My weapon when I am allowed to use it in dealing with them is just taking the piss, as any form of meaningful communication is largely impossible. Though I must admit the latter is far better now and may be learning at last, but others will take over. It is a continuous process needing continual vigilance from the egotist police. This fitted perfectly into the point of my post as we see the same thing pre internet via the paper magazines and the retailers. Self appointed largely knowledgeless egotists who's purpose is thought domination and to remove choice. OK a few of you saw through it but most people were just simply ripped off, and many are still in the same trap or frame of mind as a visit to PFM or even more so the manufacturers forums will show. I see it as one of my jobs too provide warning and heads-up to the process happening all over again, but now on forums it involves industry people spamming and activating shills for overt and covert promotion of latest flavour of the month products. ** cable is a classic example as a year or two ago it was shilled and spammed into a FOTM, especially by a member here so I wont name, yet now look at the forum classifieds most of the sheep are now selling!! what a pointless exercise in futility. We have already had a discussion elsewhere about the point/pointlessness of trying to fight human nature. The problem with any campaign, even yours, is that it appears that the campaigner is so sure he is right that he becomes the very thing he is trying to fight and usually a lone voice. I did say 'appears'. It is up to any individual to make his own mind up about anything. Its no good calling people sheep because they go with a current trend, be it sensible or not by yours or my standards. Twas ever thus. Its not as if its important in this case, its only some bits of glass or silicon. Politics may well be different as it affects people's lives. I just can't see why its necessary to get so exited about someone's 'lifestyle' choices. Its pointless as criticising the choice of car, house or computer and no more important. Snake oil salesmen have been with us since Eden. Some of us think we can spot them a mile off but are probably wrong. |
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Post by Marco on Jul 4, 2014 11:28:14 GMT
Also, one wonders if having the ability to apply a degree of introspection is required for entry into the "egotist police"?  Marco. |
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 4, 2014 11:55:24 GMT
Pinch - The name was a reaction to what was happening on the forums. A user was simply expressing feeling and thoughts about what he hears from a product and then is attacked by the objective police as being delusional. The thread is highjacked to conflict and the poor guy doesn't get to discuss what he wanted to. So the hifisubjectivist was supposed to be a haven for these people so the subject could be discussed without conflict.
Our header says "The world of Hi-Fi is plagued by people trying to stop you commenting on what you hear and making decisions from it. This forum is different - here we do not allow people to challenge what people hear, and we can discuss the musical ability of our systems".
My view is as already said, of course objective criteria are important but only if you are designing building or repairing equipment, and even then in the end you have to switch it on and listen to it and judge it from that. For an end user it is a waste of brain space unless they wish to become a DIY home builder. For normal hi-fi enthusiasts to get involved is not only a waste of time but a source of confusion when people through it start to disbelieve their ears, or lose confidence in their ability to choose.
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Post by Pinch on Jul 4, 2014 12:02:05 GMT
Ah, thanks for clarifying that, Doc, and elaborating your perspective on the matter  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 12:34:05 GMT
When I bought my Gyrodec, it was generally regarded as an executive toy, only for looks and not for high quality reproduction. It sounded better to me than all the others that I tried, including the Pink Anniversary, I'm afraid Richard. It took a while, but the Gyro eventually garnered some respect for its abilities and I'm no longer considered to be mad for owning one. (Of course, I am actually barking mad, but my choice of TT has no connection with that). I never compared to a PT Anniversary but the Gyro beat all other TT's I heard (sub £1000 and 20 yrs ago). Objectively well engineered and subjectively great sounding. |
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Post by pinkie on Jul 4, 2014 13:35:07 GMT
When I bought my Gyrodec, it was generally regarded as an executive toy, only for looks and not for high quality reproduction. It sounded better to me than all the others that I tried, including the Pink Anniversary, I'm afraid Richard. It took a while, but the Gyro eventually garnered some respect for its abilities and I'm no longer considered to be mad for owning one. (Of course, I am actually barking mad, but my choice of TT has no connection with that). You should be afraid Chris. Very afraid. I may set the Pink Mafia on you. I have to confess I have only heard a Gyrodeck a few times 20 years ago, and for about 15 minutes about 6 months ago. They were different beasts. And both nice turntables. (If I wanted to be sulky and defensive, I might point out that todays Gyrodeck with an acrylic platter, inverted bearing, balanced suspension and DC motor may have borrowed a few of PT's early ideas) Accordingly no suprise if it sounds very similar. I was much more aware of LP12's and Oracles who were our primary rivals at the time. The main difference from the anni is no motor on the sub-chassis, so there is still that "tug" from the micro-oscillation of the suspension, and a different sub-chassis material. Gyrodecks are probably a good bit better made as well (although we pulled our finger out a bit on the Anni, which was much less "garage built" than some of the early TT's.) I have mentioned on other forums that I am not really concerned with "optimisation" for myself personally. I want something I enjoy listening to. At Uni in systems modules, I learnt the concept of "satisficing". In the real world, with impossible complexity, if you are always seeking the "best" solution, you end up never reaching a solution. Accordingly the "satisficing" idea is that you seek for better and better solutions until finding one that is "good enough". This sounds terribly contrary to the sporting ideal of striving for perfection, but it is a pragmatic reality (borne out by how many models are superceded by improvements). If Henry Ford had waited till his product development had reached even the stage of the Ford Focus before releasing his first car, instead of settling for the "good enough" Model T in its day, then there would have been far less deaths on the road by today (due to there being no cars). The PT Anni was good enough for me. And if it wasn't, rather than cast around for somebody elses turntable which is better, or fixes the things I want fixed, I am in the uniquely fortunate position of having a chum who designed the Anni, and still owns a record player manufacturer, and who can make custom modifications for me. But if I wasn't I'd probably have looked at getting a Gyrodek! Fortunately, I think I am rapidly approaching the point where I do have a reliable working system I am happy with, and can settle back to enjoing listening to music on it  |
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 4, 2014 22:38:44 GMT
Martin regarding your comments about Japanese high end. Well in the early 1980's I used a Trio L-O7D personally and for a Heathrow Show. The reaction from visitors was astonishing. People would turn around and walk out the room saying why isn't he using a Linn, one other commented on Jap crap. They were in the company of one of the finest engineered and made turntables ever, and to refer to a cheap belt drive rip off of an Ariston in the same breath was ludicrous. But most damaging was the reaction of my dealers to the extent that I was stupid enough to sell the Trio and buy a Linn in time for the next years show. The sad thing is that while this stupidity was going on in the British market Jap Inc was in the process of producing the finest high equipment they ever had, and we here in the UK ignored it. These are my current sources, Cart from the late 1950's Danish design, Turntable from the 1970 Jap, and CD player and Dac form the 1980's Jap design, AND I cannot improve on them.  |
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Post by welder on Jul 4, 2014 22:41:33 GMT
Hi Marco. I’ve taken the points you mention as part of the hobby. I appreciate not everyone does. If I was to take up painting for example hopefully I wouldn’t start by using a roller. It seems quite reasonable to me that one would learn at least a bit about the different paints available, what brushes give what effects, before I started on my masterpiece and again hopefully, I would learn more about techniques and the more technical aspects as I progressed. That’s me though and I’m sure there are people who just pick up a roller and start painting. Most of those I reckon end up as decorators. 
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 4, 2014 23:10:14 GMT
Daft analogy Welder, we are talking here about people who buy the paintings in order to look at them and enjoy them, they don't need to be the artist to do that.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 5, 2014 5:16:42 GMT
Richard, even today the L-07D has to be THE most desirable turntable of all time, a supreme object of desire for very good reasons. I bet you wish you hadn't sold yours.
If I was ever in a position to make an offer for one, I would bag it in a flash.
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Post by John on Jul 5, 2014 5:59:12 GMT
My biggest regret was not buying a L-07D when I had the chance and also not buying a EMT before prices went crazy
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