Marco
Rank: Trio
Banned
Posts: 242
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Post by Marco on Jul 3, 2014 21:55:11 GMT
said as someone whose system, in terms of 'measurement apparatus', has successfully evolved for over 30 years with the use of little more than a stylus pressure gauge! You probably do more objectivism than you might realise, Marco. Little things like having your mains power impedance measured; adhering to good output power practice for your amp / speaker combo, matching preamp with power amp, having an interest in signal and speaker cable impedance and yes, setting stylus tracking initially with a gauge Lol... Yes, you're right; I do/have done all of that! Anyway, I think the key is to adopt the approach that works best for you, and have the gumption/strength of conviction to stick with it, if you firmly believe that it's right - even if your thinking flies in the face of 'current wisdom'. Also, resist the futility of trying to 'save people from themselves' or embarking on a mission to 'convert' them to your 'correct' and/or 'logical' way of thinking
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Marco
Rank: Trio
Banned
Posts: 242
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Post by Marco on Jul 3, 2014 22:04:38 GMT
We would all I believe have better performing systems if we used all the tools at our disposal. Hi John, Yes, providing that we know how to use the tools in question, in the first place, and also understand what they tell us [not all of us are born technically minded]. Even more important than that, in terms of measurements, is to ensure that what needs measuring is precisely what *is* being measured! Marco.
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 3, 2014 23:37:45 GMT
The problem is not Objectivists or Subjectivists per se, the problem is with a lot of the people who adopt the titles. Egotists, self congratulatory personalities with closed minds. They populate all the forums.
Objectivists largely want to create a superior status by using charts and specs and other objective criteria and a claimed technical understanding in order to dominate a conversation or put themselves in a position of self perceived superiority. Largely self defeating and easy for knowledgeable people to show them where the music does no co-inside with the spec. AND that is the point, music is an artistic process, it can only be judged artistically which is subjective by its very nature. The importance for objective criteria is in design, manufacture and repair, but for the end user it has a much importance as a second belly button and usually creates as much confusion. In the old days up to the mid 70's all magazine reviews were objective and often equipment wasn't even listened to, and an elite was created, that promptly disappeared up their own arses as all elites do. An easy to dominate market which was done at the expense of the customer per usual.
Subjectivists arrived with the on set of the Flat Earth, but co-incided with Haymarket Publishing wanting to dominate the magazine market in the mid to late 70's. Haymarket are cheapskates who employ kids with little knowledge for little money, and refused to pay the rates the objectivist elites wanted to do the job. Ivor T of Linn is a clever man and recognised the process that was going on and the simple minds available to be manipulated to his will. This created the next 20 years of the market being dominated by The Flat Earth home PA system hi-fi concept fed by willing and indoctrinated dealers and magazine editors and reviewers. And it was all based on subjectivist assessment manipulated by the pronouncements of one man who had almost god like status Ivor T with Julien V very much in his wake. Again people became ego driven and many disappaered up their own arses in the magazine extreme of Chris Frankland and in the enthusiast / reviewer extreme of Jimmy Hughes. Both ended up giving subjectivists a bad name as foo creators. Which has become a whip to use on the forums as soon as a subjectivist might be seen to be winning an argument.
Personally I was hoping with the onset of forums and the hoped demise of the paper magazines that this stupidity would change. Sadly I didn't take account of human nature, and the people who went up their arses before with a little power will of course disappear up their arses again. So we have the battle lines drawn, mostly and predictably fought out on the like of PFM with every thread following the same stupid course with the same stupid people to the same stupid end result, an exercise in stupidity and futility.
MODERATION: PERSONAL ATTACKS REMOVED
I am in the unique position of having to be both objective and subjective as I need both. I design and build and repair so I use the objective every day. BUT the final thing that happens is I listen and that is subjective and it is that that tell me if my objective work has been a success as it is completely IMPOSSIBLE to tell without it. The best specs don't always make the best product. BUT for the normal members here to try and pursue the objective is completely pointless, almost all haven't got a clue what is being told them and others! well the expression "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" comes readily to mind.
A Hi-Fi enthusiast then all you need is your ears and to trust them even if others try to make their ears superior to yours, they aren't it is just a game to inflate their egos. Everyone should have confidence in their own ability to choose, and choice is very important, not just "certain" manufacturers dominating the market as in the past. But again don't get a closed mind with your current choices as your ability to perceive will change with time. So ears and an open mind is all you need, everything else is bullshit!
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Post by ChrisB on Jul 4, 2014 0:10:17 GMT
Richard, I don't know how long you expected that post to remain unedited and in public view, but we will not have personal attacks and insults on this forum.
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 4, 2014 1:39:23 GMT
I expect reality to prevail or is the only important thing for you censorship. There is no personal attack there is reality and you insult the OP in not allowing it to stand.
The problem is the people not the words per usual, and it is impossible to explain that without examples.
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Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Jul 4, 2014 1:44:28 GMT
Them why did you allow this to stand "Again people became ego driven and many disappaered up their own arses in the magazine extreme of Chris Frankland and in the enthusiast / reviewer extreme of Jimmy Hughes. Both ended up giving subjectivists a bad name as foo creators. Which has become a whip to use on the forums as soon as a subjectivist might be seen to be winning an argument". It is exactly the same as the bit you removed, giving modern examples of problems.
If censorship prevails over discussion and reality then this forum is not going to achieve its aims and will just become a bland box of nonsense. You failed you first test!!!!!!!!
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Post by John on Jul 4, 2014 4:24:00 GMT
Lets just remember rule 2 when discussing hot topics and talking about the past
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Post by MartinT on Jul 4, 2014 6:20:28 GMT
Them why did you allow this to stand "Again people became ego driven and many disappaered up their own arses in the magazine extreme of Chris Frankland and in the enthusiast / reviewer extreme of Jimmy Hughes. Both ended up giving subjectivists a bad name as foo creators. Which has become a whip to use on the forums as soon as a subjectivist might be seen to be winning an argument". It is exactly the same as the bit you removed, giving modern examples of problems. If censorship prevails over discussion and reality then this forum is not going to achieve its aims and will just become a bland box of nonsense. You failed you first test!!!!!!!! If those people want to join as members and respond in their own words, then the above will be further moderated. Until then, I think your rudeness should stand for all to see. The bit that Chris correctly removed consisted of personal insults directed at fellow members, which as you well know (because you can read) violates our forum rules.
Censorship does not prevail in this forum, but as in any country on this Earth you are not free to say just anything you wish. Your thoughts on objectivism/subjectivism are welcome, but you need to make them while still observing a code of common decency and not attacking anyone personally.
You are not the judge of this forum. If anything, you failed your first test.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 4, 2014 6:21:32 GMT
Lets just remember rule 2 when discussing hot topics and talking about the past And rule 3 could not be any clearer.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 4, 2014 7:25:49 GMT
Subjectivists arrived with the on set of the Flat Earth, but co-incided with Haymarket Publishing wanting to dominate the magazine market in the mid to late 70's. Haymarket are cheapskates who employ kids with little knowledge for little money, and refused to pay the rates the objectivist elites wanted to do the job. I completely agree that this was a dark period in the history of the UK hi-fi industry, although I cannot comment on the pay rates of objectivist writers. I remember wondering why it was that, almost overnight, anything that wasn't Linn/Naim/Exposure was considered second rate even before the subjectivist review got fully under way. In hindsight, they were not really subjectivist reviews but completely hoodwinked by an emergent belief system, because no comparison was allowed with, say, Japan's best at the time. It also amused me that some of the music used (it seemed that the reviewers pulled from a collection of just half a dozen records) I wouldn't give house room to (anyone remember Ben Sidran?).
I felt out on a limb lusting after top end Japanese brands like Technics, Elite, Esoteric, Sony etc. and JBL speakers (I did eventually buy a pair). I remember going to Graham's Hi-Fi for a demonstration of some Croft gear and being told that the Naim preamps were much better. Not to my ears, they weren't. I also objected to having Linn Kans being used for the demo as they were horrible edgy squawk boxes. This got their backs up immediately but I stood my ground. In the end, they made no sale for their ridiculously biased attitude.
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Post by ChrisB on Jul 4, 2014 7:39:28 GMT
I was once in need of a new pair of speakers and went to several dealers to see what was available locally (or as local as any hifi dealer is in rural sw-Scotland). A certain dealership essentially told me they wouldn't sell me speakers, but that I should replace my turntable first. My Gyro/Zeta/Koetsu was not good enough and an LP12/LVX/Basik would be far and away better. Only after that would I be allowed to consider changing the speakers. An interesting comment that had a rather profound effect on me - rather the opposite one to the response they were seeking.
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Post by pinkie on Jul 4, 2014 8:13:20 GMT
The market was a closed shop. Only the very bravest Linn stockist (I can think of 2) would also stock PT, because of Linn "pressures". So trying to get an A:B comparison of the decks was nearly impossible. The beauty of the stunt was that once you had defined the Linn sound as "accurate" by definition, anything else other than a "me too" copy wasnt. In the end it drove us to use their crappy motor (well Martin Colloms had an influence too - perhaps that's where my anti-Koetsu bias comes from). Happy days (not)
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Post by pinkie on Jul 4, 2014 8:16:00 GMT
I expect reality to prevail or is the only important thing for you censorship. There is no personal attack there is reality and you insult the OP in not allowing it to stand. The problem is the people not the words per usual, and it is impossible to explain that without examples. You have an "ad-hominum" rule on your own forum Richard, and don't consider it censorship. And you are quite an active "hands on" moderator there. The forum rules here seem few and clear. But the core point you were making was a good one.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 4, 2014 8:26:34 GMT
We would all I believe have better performing systems if we used all the tools at our disposal. Agreed. +2 - and note to self
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 4, 2014 8:32:28 GMT
Subjectivists arrived with the on set of the Flat Earth, but co-incided with Haymarket Publishing wanting to dominate the magazine market in the mid to late 70's. Haymarket are cheapskates who employ kids with little knowledge for little money, and refused to pay the rates the objectivist elites wanted to do the job. I completely agree that this was a dark period in the history of the UK hi-fi industry, although I cannot comment on the pay rates of objectivist writers. I remember wondering why it was that, almost overnight, anything that wasn't Linn/Naim/Exposure was considered second rate even before the subjectivist review got fully under way. In hindsight, they were not really subjectivist reviews but completely hoodwinked by an emergent belief system, because no comparison was allowed with, say, Japan's best at the time. It also amused me that some of the music used (it seemed that the reviewers pulled from a collection of just half a dozen records) I wouldn't give house room to (anyone remember Ben Sidran?).
I felt out on a limb lusting after top end Japanese brands like Technics, Elite, Esoteric, Sony etc. and JBL speakers (I did eventually buy a pair). I remember going to Graham's Hi-Fi for a demonstration of some Croft gear and being told that the Naim preamps were much better. Not to my ears, they weren't. I also objected to having Linn Kans being used for the demo as they were horrible edgy squawk boxes. This got their backs up immediately but I stood my ground. In the end, they made no sale for their ridiculously biased attitude.
Whoa That was me totally suckered back then. Thanks for nothing Haymarket I also went to Grahams and was impressed the LP12/Naim/Isobarik system sounded better than the Merdian active I had heard around the corner. There was a frank exchange of views when I asked Michael Lewin (?) to turn up the volume, too high for him.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 4, 2014 8:33:58 GMT
I was once in need of a new pair of speakers and went to several dealers to see what was available locally (or as local as any hifi dealer is in rural sw-Scotland). A certain dealership essentially told me they wouldn't sell me speakers, but that I should replace my turntable first. My Gyro/Zeta/Koetsu was not good enough and an LP12/LVX/Basik would be far and away better. Only after that would I be allowed to consider changing the speakers. An interesting comment that had a rather profound effect on me - rather the opposite one to the response they were seeking. Wish I'd been more with it back then......
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Post by MartinT on Jul 4, 2014 8:43:20 GMT
I was once in need of a new pair of speakers and went to several dealers to see what was available locally (or as local as any hifi dealer is in rural sw-Scotland). A certain dealership essentially told me they wouldn't sell me speakers, but that I should replace my turntable first. My Gyro/Zeta/Koetsu was not good enough and an LP12/LVX/Basik would be far and away better. Only after that would I be allowed to consider changing the speakers. An interesting comment that had a rather profound effect on me - rather the opposite one to the response they were seeking. That's even worse than my experience. Did you reveal the 'profound effect' to them?
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Post by DaveC on Jul 4, 2014 8:44:09 GMT
I think in order to be able to assess a system you have to be a subjectivist (what would be the point otherwise), but in order to understand what's happening and to make informed improvements, you have to be an objectivist. For me, it's never a case of one or the other. Exactly, and you can be both or neither ! And why the label anyway ? Isn't it all about music ? Dave
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Post by danielquinn on Jul 4, 2014 8:44:41 GMT
objectivism v subjectivism is of course the primary dichotomy that runs through all intellectual thought since the renaissance , in hifi is has been appropriated and bastardised without due care and usually by cut and paste thinkers who don't really understand what they are talking about and try to close down arguments by quoting received wisdom they only have a 10% grasp off .
It makes for repetitive occasionally amusing arguments , in terms of a punter purchases I am at a loss to understand how "objectivism" can provide any information you ears cant .
And of course everybody with half a brain knows that was is passes off as objective knowledge is ultimately socially constructed normative narratives and can't escapes the fact it is at the core subjective .
Edit - in hifi it matters not a jot , but if you are to have a coherent epistemological and ontological theory then you simply cannot be both as they are mutually exclusive . Anthony Giddens did try to marry the two and this was of course appropriated by Blair and Brown and became the third way .
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 4, 2014 8:49:35 GMT
I think in order to be able to assess a system you have to be a subjectivist (what would be the point otherwise), but in order to understand what's happening and to make informed improvements, you have to be an objectivist. For me, it's never a case of one or the other. Exactly, and you can be both or neither ! And why the label anyway ? Isn't it all about music ? Dave Well put Dave. Music first, middle and last. Anything else has to be a key to getting more music
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