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Post by julesd68 on Mar 17, 2016 11:05:06 GMT
An Austrian company is looking for investors in their "HD vinyl" development. Not sure what to make of this. Personally I would just be happy if current vinyl releases were produced and pressed with more care! < In conjunction with Austrian lab Research Joanneum, Rebeat Digital founder Günter Loibl has reportedly developed a method with which vinyl records can be manufactured with a longer playing time and a wider frequency range. >
Read the full article here.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 17, 2016 12:50:39 GMT
It was a physical fact I thought, that to cut a reasonable level low frequency tone, you need time-valuable 'land' on a record side due to the size of the 'squiggles.' Very high frequencies are soon shaved away by the stylus either smoothing them away or mistracking them into distortion. Half speed mastering kept the bass and DMM the treble and 45rpm kept both but limits time...
Interesting to see how this pans out.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 17, 2016 13:20:45 GMT
RCA did all the research work for the original microgroove LP. I wonder if this is just smarter groove spacing using look-ahead or something really new?
Of course, you could say that vinyl is already HD with the limiting resolution being the master tape and vinyl molecule size.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 17, 2016 18:30:11 GMT
HD as in signal to noise (20db in the bass and 40db in the mids, 70db in hf), or frequency extension (no low bass for reasons I gave and also hf limitations, especially after playing several times). However, an old friend who has researched some of these things, sent me this, which I think sums it up beter than I ever could - "See also www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/03/15/high-definition-vinyl-will-soon-become-a-reality/ The article linked to by David seems to concentrate on the possibility of wider frequency range, greater dynamic range, and increased playing time. My view is that none of these is really a problem with vinyl: the real problem areas are distortion and surface noise. (Indeed, cutting higher frequencies could cause problems for some playback stylus profiles). The new process is basically a method of cutting the master with a high-precision laser instead of an electro-mechanical chisel. Since a traditional cutting head is a transducer, it is bound to have quite high levels of non-linear distortion, so this new technique should help in that respect. (It will probably also reduce crosstalk). But surface noise is a property of vinyl formulation and pressing care – so that will stay the same. All in all, I see it as a worthwhile improvement." P.S. When Linn got their Scully cutting lathe, they had issues at first in getting good frequency response from it, as there was a resonance in the lower kHz region and they also discovered that cutting anything over 15k was a big issue for the cutting head itself, especially as levels needed to be increased as the side progresses. Maybe other vinyl mastering houses got over this, but it was a known problem I was told.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 17, 2016 21:27:49 GMT
I was really thinking of vanishingly low 'sampling rate' rather than the more obvious time-slicing of digital. However, I acknowledge those other things and the fact that vinyl sounds far better than it has any right to.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2016 19:09:35 GMT
The proposed laser system will produce digital LPs. Converts to digital for cutting probably due to the use of digital preview. The supposed frequency limits do not appear to be a problem for top cutting houses these days. This is discussed with Ryan Smith on recent visit to Sterling Sound by MF of Analog Planet. I cannot see any real advantages - solution looking for a problem. The inability to cut an all analogue LP is a deal breaker for many audiophiles.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 19, 2016 8:38:25 GMT
It's really why audiophile LPs exist. If it's digitally mastered, I'm better off buying the CD.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2016 10:26:56 GMT
It's really why audiophile LPs exist. If it's digitally mastered, I'm better off buying the CD. I can't agree with that in terms of modern hi-res digital recordings. There is better sound to be had from 24 bit digital transferred to lp rather than converted to 16bit 44.1 Khz CD. Rarely have come across a vinyl transfer even from 16bit that doesn't sound better on LP - Brothers In Arms and Tracy Chapman self titled are good examples from many years ago.
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Post by julesd68 on Mar 19, 2016 11:35:25 GMT
I've actually had a few excellent results recently buying 1980's digital classical recordings on vinyl, which previously I wouldn't have touched. 'Four last songs' for example with Jessye Norman is a lovely recording ... I'm much more open minded to 'digital' vinyl now.
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Post by MartinT on Mar 19, 2016 13:01:16 GMT
The same Four Last Songs recording on CD is also outstanding.
I love vinyl, don't get me wrong, but it loses very little indeed now to CD in my system.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2016 16:41:04 GMT
Last Friday I was privy to a demonstration of a brand new ultra super doper vinyl pressing costing £300 a UK company supplying played through a rather special system.
Not impressed at all sounded more digital than digital, direct cut to master ultra clean (for vinyl), dynamic and open, but very clinical.
The cart was ultra high end Jap, phono stage £25K, deck £30K, arm £6K systems £200K+, yet the previous track a 1960 Paganini sounded sublime.
Interesting comparison none the less
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Post by MartinT on Mar 21, 2016 18:18:31 GMT
Was it kept in the analogue domain, Tony?
I do find, rather like high end valve versus solid state, that high end analogue versus digital start to converge in sound quality.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 21, 2016 18:27:42 GMT
I really think you'd need to compare with the source material the record was cut and pressed from, whatever it is. Only then would you really know how 'good' the pressing was I feel. Having done this myself back in the day, I had an exact reference showing me how awful a late 80's LP12/Ittok/Troika really was at playing vinyl - it coped well with the acetate made in comparison with the original 30IPS 1/2" Blue Nile master, but 12" 45rpm vinyl was much worse and the LP laughable. One reason why I adopted NAS decks when I first heard them soon after, as for me, they 'out-did' the LP12 in all the 'tune-dem' aspects (for a lot less money too) and offered the sense of life, clarity without sickly-sweet stodge, and emotion in the singing I remembered from the master tapes I heard on a couple of occasions. I feel the very recent digital remasterings of the Linn-Label Blue Nile albums offer this...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2016 18:29:31 GMT
I will get some more info on this as I am not sure, however audiophile I suspect will have many multiple moments of self gratification, for those who us who like to be immersed in music decidedly not so.
It was produced in 2015 with a signed certificate by two recording engineers, will find out for you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 12:18:18 GMT
Martin As promised the actual recording by The Electric Recording Company this label and as you can see they go to great lengths to keep it preserved entirely in the analogue domain. I am not merely making the observation of how stark and forward the recording was compared to the previous Deutsche Grammophon recording from 1960 that was played directly before. In essence more digital sounding! Details of the Electric Companys EthosThe actual recording it seems has sold out @ £300 a copy!Dave, I am quite aware of comparing like for like recordings and not jumping to any wild conclusions, I also have a controlling stake in a well respected recording studio I am well versed in how both digital and analogue recordings are made, and have made one or two recording over the years. It did make for an interesting listening session!
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Post by speedysteve on Mar 22, 2016 19:00:38 GMT
They should be sure to listen to all of Yello's 12" 45 singles first - now they are HD vinyl imho!
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Post by julesd68 on Mar 22, 2016 19:10:26 GMT
Martin As promised the actual recording by The Electric Recording Company this label and as you can see they go to great lengths to keep it preserved entirely in the analogue domain. I am not merely making the observation of how stark and forward the recording was compared to the previous Deutsche Grammophon recording from 1960 that was played directly before. In essence more digital sounding! Details of the Electric Companys EthosThe actual recording it seems has sold out @ £300 a copy!Back in the 60's DG used to make some very fine recordings. They don't quite have the kudos that early Decca and HMV have though ... I possibly wouldn't have expected the 300 quid recording to sound as good as a near mint original but very dissapointing to hear that it sounded stark and forward - you could save yourself 290 quid and buy one of their late 1970's re-issues if you wanted that particular sound balance!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 19:18:29 GMT
Jules
I never bought the owner just happened to have it opened and played for me in a very nice system.
The recording was very good, it just sounded more digital like.
£300 gets you a lot of music, you would need to be an obsessive vinyl junkie with a very serious system to pay out that much on a record!
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Post by julesd68 on Mar 22, 2016 19:43:44 GMT
Thing is with some of those re-issues is that £300 is still a lot cheaper than a near mint original.
ERC released the Kogan Beethoven which you can easily pay upwards of 4K for ...
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