Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Nov 14, 2024 8:16:22 GMT
I was surprised when I first listened to the CelAudio streamer in my X30 Dac. The SQ was truly impressive... well beyond just acceptable. I reason that there are benefits to the signal being confined within the Dac without having to engage multiple devices, cables and power supplies associated with external streaming topologies. Connecting the network to the Dac from my EtherRegen provided clean access to Qobuz and local music files. Upon returning to the Signature Rendu SE > Gustard U18 > X30 Dac the contest was over. The latter clearly had a presentation that is a bit more live and expansive. It's said that the last few percent of improvement are the most expensive and my test seems to bear this out. I'd like to try the CelAudio streamer again with HQPlayer but for the time beyond I'm too busy just enjoying the music as rendered by the external streamer. I can't imagine anyone being disappointed with the CelAudio streamer as it is implemented by Gustard. I guess it mainly comes down to how well they have separated the streamer part noise (CPU activity and such) from the DAC section and if there are quality parts involved to keep the noise floor as low as possible. If you feed very clean signals to a modern Mid-Fi streamer/DAC it is going to sound surprisingly good i believe. Having said this, i know that AlphaAudio have seen that a WiiM doesn´t scale that well (for example), with clean power and lower ethernet noise floor, so there is big differences in implementation of course. (Not saying that you should compare the X30 with a WiiM :-))
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Post by MartinT on Nov 14, 2024 9:55:04 GMT
There's a very big difference between designing a circuit that works (e.g. the Wiim), which is inexpensive to manufacture, and a design like the Signature Rendu Deluxe that is the outcome of years of research and upgrades, in order to reduce noise everywhere to the absolute minimum. Attention to detail like how to best inject the clock into the stream have paid dividends. However, time is expensive and so is recovering R&D costs. That's why such streamers don't come cheap.
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Nov 14, 2024 10:48:09 GMT
But there are also debates regarding weather the source clock is actually that important or not, or if there are other solutions where this is not needed. Obviously, it can have a huge impact but from what i understand the dac chip is still running from the DAC clock, even if it is not the master. That is still the clock that matters at the end of the day. So just because you have a perfect master clock it doesn´t mean that your DAC clock will follow it perfectly, probably. It is still a subject for noise. Maybe you can also make the DAC clock be as precise if you give it the best possible environment to work in (the lowest possible noise floor) using other methods, like just pure filtering options and clean power. (unless the environment/components selected sets the boundaries for the noise floor potential early) Having said that, there is of course much more that have importance for the sound from the DAC.
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bencat
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 353
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Post by bencat on Nov 14, 2024 11:41:51 GMT
If you have a reclocker in your chain then the digital file will have its clock information stripped out and the file will be then timed to the reclocker . If this in turn has a good external clock added then everything will be referenced back to this . This then much improved and accurately timed file is delivered to the DAC for conversion . At this stage the file information is as good as it can be and the DAC will have a nice easy job just making the conversion to analogue . If the DAD clock needs improving is hard to say . One thing is for sure you would struggle to improve the timing of the file at that point in the chain and you can easily tell this as the use of external clocks that are stable and accurate make music sound better 😃
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Nov 14, 2024 11:56:10 GMT
If you have a reclocker in your chain then the digital file will have its clock information stripped out and the file will be then timed to the reclocker . If this in turn has a good external clock added then everything will be referenced back to this . This then much improved and accurately timed file is delivered to the DAC for conversion . At this stage the file information is as good as it can be and the DAC will have a nice easy job just making the conversion to analogue . If the DAD clock needs improving is hard to say . One thing is for sure you would struggle to improve the timing of the file at that point in the chain and you can easily tell this as the use of external clocks that are stable and accurate make music sound better 😃 Yes, this was the theory until fairly recently at least and what many manufacturers are still working with. I asked Hans Beekhuyzen recently, after one of his latest videos, if he still believes in re-clocking (as such), since his theories are sort of implying that they are not needed, and his answer was: No. He was a big advocate of this previously but he has noticed that it is not actually needed if you manage to serve the DAC clock an extremely clean signal, which has always been the problem and root issue, from how i understand him. I have to say that his latest theories makes a lot of sense and is supported by things like the Network Accoustic Muon Pro streaming system and also the similar DIY throttle choke cable concept.
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Post by John on Nov 14, 2024 12:04:51 GMT
It will be interesting to find out what works best in the context of Martin system.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 14, 2024 12:51:09 GMT
I'll always trust my own ears rather than the opinions of others. I back that up with white papers written by serious designers like John Swenson.
Reclocking (e.g. of ethernet) is really about noise reduction, of both jitter and phase noise, along the datastream.
Using an external clock into a DDC or DAC is disciplining the DAC's internal clock, making it better. This is how the Gustard works with its clock synthesiser.
I can hear the impact of both of the above, so I don't agree with Beekhuyzen's new thinking.
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Nov 14, 2024 13:07:55 GMT
But Beekhuyzen is not saying that the added clocking doesn´t have a big impact, it is indisputable that they do. What he is saying is that they probably just lowers the noise floor, as a side effect of making that clock work perfectly, which is what actually makes the difference. It is basically the same thing as you are saying, i believe. That the data is re-clocked shouldn´t actually matter since the DAC clock will treat the incoming data the same regardless, as long as it gets all data. It will not have to work less just because it is better clocked earlier.
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bencat
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 353
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Post by bencat on Nov 14, 2024 13:29:03 GMT
Sorry but if the reclocking is improving the music why should we now stop using it ? Also adding something like the LB clock is both inexpensive and reversible . So the answer is try in your system with your ears and your music . If it sounds very much better then relax and play the next track . If not then since it send it back . While I do admire those that want to know the very minor details of why something has a positive effect on the end it the result on music that matters . I can read about the reasons at my leisure but I enjoy the improvements straight away . If and some have say that is just placebo or unconscious bias then great long may it continue because Ry Closer has never sounded so sweet .
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Post by John on Nov 14, 2024 13:42:38 GMT
I think it is easy to get absolute in our thinking about what works. Often their are so many variables.
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Nov 14, 2024 14:01:00 GMT
Sorry but if the reclocking is improving the music why should we now stop using it ? Also adding something like the LB clock is both inexpensive and reversible . So the answer is try in your system with your ears and your music . If it sounds very much better then relax and play the next track . If not then since it send it back . While I do admire those that want to know the very minor details of why something has a positive effect on the end it the result on music that matters . I can read about the reasons at my leisure but I enjoy the improvements straight away . If and some have say that is just placebo or unconscious bias then great long may it continue because Ry Closer has never sounded so sweet . This is to help people that are new, that want to understand what to buy and why different approaches can end up giving the same, or similar, result. As you say, it can probably be very cost effective to use a re-clocker as well. Talking about these things, and what is being discovered in the area that maybe wasn´t known earlier, can´t be a bad thing, in my mind. No one is claiming that something that works very well needs to be re-done or similar (or that a new way is better). The problem with some of these digital audio discussions is that sometimes things are presented completely false (which is of course totally OK), which is why the younger generation go bananas when they read some statements around re-clocking, for example, that just doesn´t make any sense, what so ever. To win that generation over, that often knows how digital works, you need to present something that actually makes sense logically, since we can´t measure the results as of today.
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bencat
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 353
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Post by bencat on Nov 14, 2024 15:38:53 GMT
Sorry but what about reclocking does not make any sense . Digital files are all about numbers and the timing and presentation of those numbers to the next in the chain . The better the master clock is the more accurate and stable it own then the easier and more accurately it will be converted what is controversial about that ? I have not used any of the things currently being said by the site you link to as I do not use Wi-Fi only Ethernet and Optical . So I have no way of saying it works or does not . But I guess and yes I am saying guess that adding a high quality stable and accurate clock as mastering the chain will most likely result in the music sounding better as it does in my system . It may well be that the uplift will be less than in those systems that have followed the trail of low noise but I would still feel confident that it will make a difference . Most on here are quite a long way down the road with various treatments many of which I have not tried . At this point for all of us I would guess the gains are small increments but as long as they are positive then for they are worth making .
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Nov 14, 2024 16:17:23 GMT
Sorry but what about reclocking does not make any sense . Digital files are all about numbers and the timing and presentation of those numbers to the next in the chain . The better the master clock is the more accurate and stable it own then the easier and more accurately it will be converted what is controversial about that ? I have not used any of the things currently being said by the site you link to as I do not use Wi-Fi only Ethernet and Optical . So I have no way of saying it works or does not . But I guess and yes I am saying guess that adding a high quality stable and accurate clock as mastering the chain will most likely result in the music sounding better as it does in my system . It may well be that the uplift will be less than in those systems that have followed the trail of low noise but I would still feel confident that it will make a difference . Most on here are quite a long way down the road with various treatments many of which I have not tried . At this point for all of us I would guess the gains are small increments but as long as they are positive then for they are worth making . Yes, maybe my statements where a bit drastic, i apologize for that. What i wanted to say is that there where some holes in the re-clocking theories that are very hard to explain logically. The idea that it is easier in the next step, if something is better clocked prior, is not how digital works (from what i have learnt). When the new clock starts it doesn´t matter how it was clocked before since it doesn´t take the previous information into account. The only thing that matters in digital is that the data arrives, or it doesn´t, so there is no need for that sort of logic. (Please correct me if i am wrong) Since the result when implementing an additional clock has been very positive, one has tried to find explanations for this, naturally. This is why this theory has been presented, i believe. Mostly because there where no better explanations, i would guess. For those who has had very sophisticated setups, and then recently tried the full-on throttle choke concept, it has been clear that you can get the same (they seem to report better!) results just by filtering, instead of involving things like re-clocking. These types of findings has made people re-think what is actually going on since it only seem to be about noise and its only the last clock that seem to matter. I also haven´t tried everything, far from it, and i don´t even have an impressive setup by others standard! But if you see what people are saying, that is switching to passive filtering (Network Accoustic and Throttle choke setups), it is very clear they do very well without re-clocking anything. Having said this, i can certainly be very wrong! Note that I only echo what others are trying to figure out, which also seem to make sense to me, so its not something i have come up with myself. I have however been fairly shocked (sorry for that word, I couldn´t come up with a better one...) by the result of Throttle Choke concept.
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Post by John on Nov 14, 2024 17:06:13 GMT
Tobias remind me what DAC are you using
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Nov 14, 2024 17:35:11 GMT
Tobias remind me what DAC are you using I have a boutique built dac, from Dion Audio, in my amp that is built on the Burr Brown 1795 chip. That was fairly good 10 years ago but not so much today, i imagine. (just guessing) My own experience is mostly built on having brought my different stages of ferrit chokes (power and WiFi client) combinations, as it evolved, to other people setups and listen together with them and by that gathered confidence in trusting the logic. But also reading and discussing what others have found in this area, during the last year on other forums, that often put a lot of effort into improving their ethernet noise floor prior to trying this.
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Nov 14, 2024 18:13:22 GMT
I think it is easy to get absolute in our thinking about what works. Often their are so many variables. But in the digital domain it is actually absolute, i would like to point out. Digital transport is perfect, by design, and has nothing to do with audio since the sound gets created in the DAC. That is the difference between digital and analogue. In digital everything is actually very absolute, even if it can be hard to understand and explain. The problem in the audio context has been that no-one understood fully... then all sorts of digital theories has emerged but now it seems like it is pointing at a very simple and easy to understand root problem: Varying noise levels in the DAC, and extreme sensitivity, at levels no-one could even imagine. This is at least my own conclusion on the digital "mystery", based on what experts are concluding in the last year, or as we speak.
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Post by John on Nov 14, 2024 19:21:21 GMT
Not easy for you to try a master clock. I think for your DAC a reclocker might help, but totally understand if you rather not try
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Nov 14, 2024 19:27:58 GMT
Not easy for you to try a master clock. I think for your DAC a reclocker might help, but totally understand if you rather not try Yes, if i could connect a extra external master clock to my DAC, and it results in lowered noise floor in my DAC, then it should help. (applying the same theory) In my case i actually think my streamer act as the Master clock, if i am not mistaken, since i use the coax cable to my DAC. I believe it works like that?
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Post by MartinT on Nov 14, 2024 22:26:51 GMT
For those who has had very sophisticated setups, and then recently tried the full-on throttle choke concept, it has been clear that you can get the same (they seem to report better!) results just by filtering, instead of involving things like re-clocking. Reclocking is just one way of reducing noise on the analogue carrier (see below). A throttle cable is another. Yet another is to use grounding boxes along the chain. And one final one is vibration control. Take your pick of methods, we have all chosen differently but all are valid. Digital transport is perfect, by design, and has nothing to do with audio since the sound gets created in the DAC. Careful: digital data transport is impervious within boundaries. The digital data sits on top of an analogue carrier which is much more subject to noise.
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Tobias
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 320
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Post by Tobias on Nov 15, 2024 6:55:40 GMT
For those who has had very sophisticated setups, and then recently tried the full-on throttle choke concept, it has been clear that you can get the same (they seem to report better!) results just by filtering, instead of involving things like re-clocking. Reclocking is just one way of reducing noise on the analogue carrier (see below). A throttle cable is another. Yet another is to use grounding boxes along the chain. And one final one is vibration control. Take your pick of methods, we have all chosen differently but all are valid. Digital transport is perfect, by design, and has nothing to do with audio since the sound gets created in the DAC. Careful: digital data transport is impervious within boundaries. The digital data sits on top of an analogue carrier which is much more subject to noise. Yes, i agree on everything you are saying. I just wanted to share that this is actually much simpler than we tend to think. It seems it is always analogue root issues that can be solved without involving digital thinking, if you want. If you think of digital as analogue, with all its normal challenges (but multiply the impact they have) then everything starts to make sense i feel. Even sound quality differences, in the digital domain, you can now much easier understand since you know it is a noise, vibration or temperature problems, at heart.
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