Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Sept 16, 2024 7:51:46 GMT
The main reason for the original sampling being the best sounding is that the DAC chip in that case has to do less work and makes less demands on cpu power . The same also applies if there is upsampling at multiples of the same rate . The straight 2 x , 4 x , etc is much easier on computing power and so current demand than the more complicated calculation of 44.1 to 96 . Hmm, ok. That could be the case i guess. Then that is yet another scenario to account for. In my case if feels like higher resolution it self seem to be a bottleneck for my DAC chip, right now. One reason i haven´t tried downsampling before was because I was very certain that the downsampling itself would cause noise, which i still think it does. Probably different levels of noise depending on what computing power is needed, as you say. But it turns out that it seem to be better to downsample (in the streamer), even if that causes some additional noise, in my scenario with an old DAC chip and low ethernet noise.
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Post by MartinT on Sept 16, 2024 7:55:12 GMT
What DAC chip do you have, so that we have some kind of reference?
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Sept 16, 2024 8:02:23 GMT
I mean, just the fact that you prefer Abraxxas in lower resolution goes somewhat in that direction, that your DAC is having to work a tiny bit less and therefore emits less noise, which impacts the DAC itself positively. That's not what I said. I prefer Abraxas in 24/176.4 because that is its native resolution from mastering the analogue master tape. I'm like John, I always prefer playback in native resolution. Sometimes there is no choice, for instance the output of Dire Straits and Genesis are almost all remastered at hi-res but are not available in this format in Qobuz. Right, but i am questioning the idea that the native resolution of the mastering can matter, when thinking in digital terms? If the file is in 194 on Qobuz then that is all our DAC knows when it receives the file. When it is upsampled prior to our equipment it will still be perfect (digital), just in a higher resolution and the data is not changed. If it was recorded digitally in another resolution can´t matter, in my mind. But please explain. What does matter however is the noise level caused by the processing activity during the playback. Why this would matter more for Abraxxas then for other albums, i fail to understand though...But i guess the files are different in size and has more/less data to unpack/process?
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Sept 16, 2024 8:05:55 GMT
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Post by MartinT on Sept 16, 2024 9:26:24 GMT
It seems a perfectly capable DAC chip, can decode up to 32/192 data.
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Post by MartinT on Sept 16, 2024 9:35:51 GMT
Right, but i am questioning the idea that the native resolution of the mastering can matter, when thinking in digital terms? If the file is in 194 on Qobuz then that is all our DAC knows when it receives the file. It's not as simple as that, it's about the quality of the incoming data. Let's say a recording is originally mastered in 24/192 and you are listening to it in 16/44. There is no easy division from 192 to 44, interpolation is involved. This means curve fitting with some complex maths to best determine each point in 16 bits using 44.1k samples per second. Now, this can happen in one of two ways: 1. The streaming service deliver it as 16/44 data. This is likely to sound fairly good as the conversion has been done for you. 2. You are downsampling it in your steamer and then sending it to the DAC. Now your system is doing some very complex computation in real time, which is going to exercise the processor and put a lot of switching noise into the PSU. Does that help?
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Post by palace on Sept 16, 2024 9:44:27 GMT
Gents an observation, Philips were the company to introduce the CD player to the world, alongside Sony, in 1982, I bought a Philips CD 104 Red Book standard which uses uncompressed pulse code modulation (PCM) with 16-bit resolution and a sample rate of 44.1 kilohertz (kHz) this must have been in late 1984 it sounded quite good with the right CD, a lot of early CD's unfortunately were like fingernails on a blackboard after a couple of years the CD 104 became intermittent in use.
The CD104 used/uses a CDM-1 transport that Philips developed by themselves. The basis of this is a cast-iron form which holds a sophisticated swing-arm laser paired with six Rodenstock glass-lenses. In terms of musicality, the CDM-1 is considered to be the best transport ever made if a little slow in action. Following the audiophile rule of “garbage in = garbage out”, a flawless reading of the source material is the basis for musicality.
The CD104 was designed initially as 14 bit resolution 44.1 Khz sample rate using 2 x TDA1540P mono multi-bit DACs, 1 per channel. Philips discovered that Sony and others were coming to the market with 16 bit Players Philips pushed it's engineers into adding oversampling in the guise of a SAA7030 error correction chip, making the CD104 16/44.1. If the 14-bit DAC was ever considered to be a handicap by customers, I can tell you that no failing is audible at all. In fact, the later Philips 16-bit TDA1541 DACs were used in Sony’s High End players well into the 1990s, which says a lot about what Sony thought of the Philips DACs.
A good few years ago I did some research on the internet, it appears that most problems with this CD player result from "Griplets" a type of hollow rivet that goes through the double sided PCB joining the ground planes. The "Griplets" fail, simply re-soldering does not work even if a meter shows continuity! as strongly suggested on various forums using a fine bit, drill the "Griplets" easily identifiable as blobs of solder were drilled through then silver wires I had some spare, were pushed through and soldered on each side. This player has fixed signal/phono leads so a pair of my DIY leads were soldered in place, though we had chassis RCA sockets to hand this saved on soldered joints.
The result was even better than I remembered & functioned flawlessly. This work was done by my son then at technical college, after further reading I saw the NOS conversion ie no overall sampling where the SAA7030 error correction chip is removed & 4 wires soldered across the resulting gap on the PCB out came my son's soldering iron, he unsolderd the SAA7030 Over-sampling chip & fitting a 24 pin IC socket, rather than the 4 wires he plugged in a "No Overall Sampling PCB with flip/flop IC" I bought from Bulgaria it reclocking the CD104 my son also soldered a Ik resistor from pin 18 to pin 16 cutting a track on the SAA7000 to get 5v and make the chip recognise 14 bit rather than 16 bit. My son had this player for his system.
I was so impressed with it that I bought another immaculate sample off the "Bay" it's also an early grey case that came in its original box my son duplicated his previous endeavours plus this CD104 came with phono sockets he replaced the 3" wires with the silver wire I had left over from making phono leads.
As to 14 bit the CD104 after conversion has more detail strange but true, better bass indeed very analogue sounding; it sounds so natural I prefer it to the Cambridge CD4se (16/44.1) that I replaced the CD104 with, I now use for convenience the CD4se as a transport as it has a rear BNC rear digital output that the CD104 lacks. I have not asked my now married son with our granddaughter to create a digital output as lampizator shows on the internet.
My convoluted point is, if 14 bit can work so well with well recorded CD's is it the playing mechanism including streaming or the CD including streaming or finding the perfect match between them.
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Post by HD Music & Test on Sept 16, 2024 9:45:44 GMT
I would suggest sticking with direct integers of the ORIGINAL sample rate, imho it sounds more natural, less artifical, more flow etc. If you using an fpga based device then you can measure the increase in current as the red book to 96Khz is 2.1769 mutliple and 192Khz is 4.399 times the fundemental. So number crucnching occurs, where as a direct multiple is way more advantagous imho.
Aroud 80% of my stored music is a red book format, I only keep genuine original sample rate 24/96Khz, 24/176.4Khz and 24/352.8Khz files. Interestingly pretty much all of the red book masters sound way more natural, articulate and three dimesional than either Tidl or Qoboz for me.
If you are looking to go uber special then the PGGB remastering software suite is pretty special, but at the price of memory!!
Having one or two dac's to choose from some dacs internal upsampling is better than others so results do vary in this reguard, low noise floor, transparency and agility are all positive factors here in gaining a quality reply system
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Post by MartinT on Sept 16, 2024 9:49:18 GMT
The CD-104 uses 14-bit DACs but is NOT 14-bit resolution. You need to understand the principles of oversampling but effectively it will deliver 16-bit resolution using 14-bit chips.
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bencat
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Post by bencat on Sept 16, 2024 9:50:14 GMT
What Martin says much better than I did it is the use of complex math to change from one set of frequencies to another that can cause issues and is why the use the native format is the best way to go. This is also stated by those who support DSD as the best recording format but they say that the digital file should stay as DSD until it is converted to analogue for the best possible sound and should never be converted to PCM .
I have never downsampled but on my DAC/Upsampler units there is a way of outputting all files as 44.1 . So when playing 44.1 material this will be native but any HiRes will be downsampled to 44.1 no matter what the input format is. I will get selection of tracks both 44.1 and 96 and 192 and see if they sound better downsampled to 44.1 or left in the original format .
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Sept 16, 2024 9:52:23 GMT
I would suggest sticking with direct integers of the ORIGINAL sample rate, imho it sounds more natural, less artifical, more flow etc. If you using an fpga based device then you can measure the increase in current as the red book to 96Khz is 2.1769 mutliple and 192Khz is 4.399 times the fundemental. So number crucnching occurs, where as a direct multiple is way more advantagous imho. Aroud 80% of my stored music is a red book format, I only keep genuine original sample rate 24/96Khz, 24/176.4Khz and 24/352.8Khz files. Interestingly pretty much all of the red book masters sound way more natural, articulate and three dimesional than either Tidl or Qoboz for me. If you are looking to go uber special then the PGGB remastering software suite is pretty special, but at the price of memory!! Having one or two dac's to choose from some dacs internal upsampling is better than others so results do vary in this reguard, low noise floor, transparency and agility are all positive factors here in gaining a quality reply system Thanks, as usual! A lot to digest here. I should add that i love listen to new music as well, which often is high-res on qobuz. Here is where i notice a big improvement in how pleasing (yet another vocabulary) it is to listen to the album in 16/44, compared to the native Qobuz format, on my current setup.
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Post by palace on Sept 16, 2024 10:11:39 GMT
The CD-104 uses 14-bit DACs but is NOT 14-bit resolution. You need to understand the principles of oversampling but effectively it will deliver 16-bit resolution using 14-bit chips. MartinT I do not have even a modicum of your digital knowledge however how does a DAC TDA1540 with 14 bit with resolution do this on their own without the oversampling chip to produce 16 bit, after a NOS conversion when it is removed? All of the sites where NOS is promulgated & demonstrated say 14 bit resolution!
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Post by HD Music & Test on Sept 16, 2024 11:09:54 GMT
The other issue when (using an internal chip based upsampler and in most cases a dedicated extra box upsampler) to go either way is that most chaps may not realise that 95% of upsampers contain another PLL (Phase lock loop) which is crudely put another reclocking latch. So inessence you get double bubble (lol) a resampled rate plus another reclock think of a DDC with an upsampler. IMHO the resolution is the most important as inthe bit rate, CD is a box which is 16 x 16 containing 44100 samples per second, a high resolution file may contain a box 24 x 24 and have 192,000 samples per second. Don't forget this is a Logarithm not a incrimental decimal scale, as in the difference between 14bits of resolution (16384:1) and 16 bits of resolutions has 65,536 possible values. Some 24/44.1Hkz tracks sound way more enjoyable, natural than the majority of 24/192Khz tracks do *caveat* being that most are RESAMPLED from a red book master, NOT a dedicated high resolution master file of say 24/96 or 24/192Khz that is a different case altogther. Also if you have a 24/96Khz play it at that sample rate, the try 192/384Khz see what YOU feel about it
DSD is for example a box 1 x 1 but has 2.82m samples per second,
Personally I prefer more resolution than sample rate.
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Post by MartinT on Sept 16, 2024 11:12:46 GMT
If you convert one of those 14-bit DAC equipped machines to NOS, you will lose oversampling and therefore it would only resolve to 14 bits. I do not recommend doing this, it's likely to sound very lacking in detail.
They no longer comply with the Red Book standard so you can call them what you like, they are not CD players.
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Sept 16, 2024 12:17:32 GMT
Right, but i am questioning the idea that the native resolution of the mastering can matter, when thinking in digital terms? If the file is in 194 on Qobuz then that is all our DAC knows when it receives the file. It's not as simple as that, it's about the quality of the incoming data. Let's say a recording is originally mastered in 24/192 and you are listening to it in 16/44. There is no easy division from 192 to 44, interpolation is involved. This means curve fitting with some complex maths to best determine each point in 16 bits using 44.1k samples per second. Now, this can happen in one of two ways: 1. The streaming service deliver it as 16/44 data. This is likely to sound fairly good as the conversion has been done for you. 2. You are downsampling it in your steamer and then sending it to the DAC. Now your system is doing some very complex computation in real time, which is going to exercise the processor and put a lot of switching noise into the PSU. Does that help? Thanks for sharing. So the question is then, why does it sound more pleasing (fluid, evoking emotions and have better timbre/tone) when i downsample Nilufer Yanya´s new album (as an example) to 16/44? That is what i try to understand the logic behind.
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Post by MartinT on Sept 16, 2024 12:20:56 GMT
I really don't know, perhaps it's an artifact of the BB design?
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Post by MartinT on Sept 16, 2024 12:26:40 GMT
Do you mean the album My Method Actor from 2024? It's in 24/44, an unusual hi-res format which donwsamples relatively easily to 16/44. It's quite compressed at -8.43dB so not using all the usable dynamic range.
I can't comment much more, the music is not to my taste.
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Sept 16, 2024 12:28:38 GMT
Gents an observation, Philips were the company to introduce the CD player to the world, alongside Sony, in 1982, I bought a Philips CD 104 Red Book standard which uses uncompressed pulse code modulation (PCM) with 16-bit resolution and a sample rate of 44.1 kilohertz (kHz) this must have been in late 1984 it sounded quite good with the right CD, a lot of early CD's unfortunately were like fingernails on a blackboard after a couple of years the CD 104 became intermittent in use. The CD104 used/uses a CDM-1 transport that Philips developed by themselves. The basis of this is a cast-iron form which holds a sophisticated swing-arm laser paired with six Rodenstock glass-lenses. In terms of musicality, the CDM-1 is considered to be the best transport ever made if a little slow in action. Following the audiophile rule of “garbage in = garbage out”, a flawless reading of the source material is the basis for musicality. The CD104 was designed initially as 14 bit resolution 44.1 Khz sample rate using 2 x TDA1540P mono multi-bit DACs, 1 per channel. Philips discovered that Sony and others were coming to the market with 16 bit Players Philips pushed it's engineers into adding oversampling in the guise of a SAA7030 error correction chip, making the CD104 16/44.1. If the 14-bit DAC was ever considered to be a handicap by customers, I can tell you that no failing is audible at all. In fact, the later Philips 16-bit TDA1541 DACs were used in Sony’s High End players well into the 1990s, which says a lot about what Sony thought of the Philips DACs. A good few years ago I did some research on the internet, it appears that most problems with this CD player result from "Griplets" a type of hollow rivet that goes through the double sided PCB joining the ground planes. The "Griplets" fail, simply re-soldering does not work even if a meter shows continuity! as strongly suggested on various forums using a fine bit, drill the "Griplets" easily identifiable as blobs of solder were drilled through then silver wires I had some spare, were pushed through and soldered on each side. This player has fixed signal/phono leads so a pair of my DIY leads were soldered in place, though we had chassis RCA sockets to hand this saved on soldered joints. The result was even better than I remembered & functioned flawlessly. This work was done by my son then at technical college, after further reading I saw the NOS conversion ie no overall sampling where the SAA7030 error correction chip is removed & 4 wires soldered across the resulting gap on the PCB out came my son's soldering iron, he unsolderd the SAA7030 Over-sampling chip & fitting a 24 pin IC socket, rather than the 4 wires he plugged in a "No Overall Sampling PCB with flip/flop IC" I bought from Bulgaria it reclocking the CD104 my son also soldered a Ik resistor from pin 18 to pin 16 cutting a track on the SAA7000 to get 5v and make the chip recognise 14 bit rather than 16 bit. My son had this player for his system. I was so impressed with it that I bought another immaculate sample off the "Bay" it's also an early grey case that came in its original box my son duplicated his previous endeavours plus this CD104 came with phono sockets he replaced the 3" wires with the silver wire I had left over from making phono leads. As to 14 bit the CD104 after conversion has more detail strange but true, better bass indeed very analogue sounding; it sounds so natural I prefer it to the Cambridge CD4se (16/44.1) that I replaced the CD104 with, I now use for convenience the CD4se as a transport as it has a rear BNC rear digital output that the CD104 lacks. I have not asked my now married son with our granddaughter to create a digital output as lampizator shows on the internet. My convoluted point is, if 14 bit can work so well with well recorded CD's is it the playing mechanism including streaming or the CD including streaming or finding the perfect match between them. What is interesting is that there is for sure a lot of audiophiles that is going back to old philips chipset, and old digital technologies, claiming that they have some improvements in certain areas. In my mind it makes sense that lesser technologies has natively less inherent noise, since it is less processing going on on the DAC chip itself. We use trickery to remove noise now a day´s, like jitter reduction methods. But such processes will also create noise. The idea with these older "purer" chips is that they could potentially have a lower inherent noise floor and by that an even lower noise floor potential, if fed with very clean signals. Having said this i don´t want to say that the old way is necessary better, but i think there are actually aspects that can be amazingly good with the older, less process heavy technology.
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Post by palace on Sept 16, 2024 12:29:12 GMT
If you convert one of those 14-bit DAC equipped machines to NOS, you will lose oversampling and therefore it would only resolve to 14 bits. I do not recommend doing this, it's likely to sound very lacking in detail. They no longer comply with the Red Book standard so you can call them what you like, they are not CD players. As I posted we/my son NOS converted two CD104 admittedly with a "No Overall Sampling PCB with flip/flop IC" our CD104's will not play all, probably about 30% of CD-R and CD-RW recorded CD's I do agree it is not a RED BOOK compliant player but what else can I call something that does play comercial CD's brilliantly but a CD player ? As I wrote in my post "As to 14 bit the CD104 after conversion has more detail strange but true, better bass indeed very analogue sounding; it sounds so natural I prefer it to the Cambridge CD4se (16/44.1) that I replaced the CD104 with, I now use for convenience the CD4se as a transport as it has a rear BNC rear digital output that the CD104 lacks. There are hundreds if not thousands of NOS converted CD104's out there playing a machine as Philips engineers originally designed it with 14 bit output. Those visitors who have listened to a comparison twixt CD104 & CD4se have prefered the CD104 in my system some of them in the Trade & others with limited interest. I can only suggest that as with removing RFI/EMI (clutter) from the system making music sound more relaxed even sounding slower, 14 bit as intended by the Philips engineers on this CD player works in a similar way.
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Post by MartinT on Sept 16, 2024 12:33:34 GMT
Fair enough, I won't comment any futher as I haven't heard one.
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