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Post by Slinger on Jul 6, 2023 20:19:53 GMT
Have tried them both Paul some time back but just not my thing at all ... Ah, right. I was hoping that as "Sketches of Spain" features Davis buggering about with the second movement of Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez (as well as featuring some De Falla, and a bit of Villa-Lobos) it might give you an entry point.
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Post by julesd68 on Jul 6, 2023 22:17:31 GMT
Have tried them both Paul some time back but just not my thing at all ... Ah, right. I was hoping that as "Sketches of Spain" features Davis buggering about with the second movement of Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez (as well as featuring some De Falla, and a bit of Villa-Lobos) it might give you an entry point. No, but it gave me a hasty exit point!
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Post by Tim on Jul 7, 2023 10:49:13 GMT
Genres are stupid and meaningless. Couldn't agree more Chris.
I like jazz, so I'll let you guys carry on
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Post by MartinT on Jul 7, 2023 10:54:56 GMT
I like jazz, so I'll let you guys carry on Including free jazz, Tim? I simply can't lock my brain into that.
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Post by Tim on Jul 7, 2023 11:56:56 GMT
I like jazz, so I'll let you guys carry on Including free jazz, Tim? I simply can't lock my brain into that. All types Martin, apart from mainstream lounge lizard and smooth jazz - that's not real jazz. I had a light-bulb moment in Ronnie Scott's a few years ago, as I struggled a bit with free jazz. It's not easily accessible I'll agree, but when you understand what they're doing and how talented they are improvising together, it clicks, well for me it did. But I've always enjoyed jazz so it was perhaps easier to enjoy.
Keith Jarret's Köln Concert is 100% improvisation and it's outstanding, especially when you learn the piano was knackered, so he had to concentrate his playing to the central portion of the keyboard as the upper and lower notes were weak. That's talent.
I really enjoy watching artists improvise, for me it's pure musical gold.
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Post by Slinger on Jul 7, 2023 13:15:46 GMT
I think, in a way, Tim has just described the type of Jazz I don't like. It's music I'm too busy admiring to enjoy. As a (distinctly amateur) musician there are many players I can admire without actually liking them, and that type of jazz seems to harbour more than its fair share.
Basically I want pleasure, not an intellectual exercise, from my music.
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Post by julesd68 on Jul 7, 2023 20:04:02 GMT
I'm not anti-jazz at all - that would be stupid anyway since there are so many different forms of jazz as has been said and anyway I have a decent selection in my library.
I just don't understand the deification of certain musicians of which Miles Davis was just one example. I think quite a lot of their status derives from their lifestyles and personalities that somehow become legendary, much like James Dean did in the movies.
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Post by rfan8312 on Jul 9, 2023 1:53:24 GMT
Any takers on something like this when looking for potential non-intellectual wank jazz?
I ask because there are an absolute ton of jazz musicians (Chad Wackerman, Tony Allen, Jazz Pistols, Medeski/Martin/Wood, Hadrian Feraud, Jazzpospolita, RGG, Christiano Parato, Dave Weckl, Mount Everest Trio, etc, etc.) Who release albums and tracks of jazz type music that have their own character and seem to have a purpose other than endless noodling and have melody or a hook which seems to not be the case with the classic jazz I heard about when growing up.
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Post by Tim on Jul 9, 2023 10:14:12 GMT
What about more modern jazz like Tord Gustavsen or Esbjörn Svensson . . . . or is that intellectual wank as well?
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Post by MartinT on Jul 9, 2023 11:01:32 GMT
I quite like the Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio.
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Post by Slinger on Jul 9, 2023 13:13:14 GMT
One of the problems, and something we're getting hung up on, is the "intellectual wank" thing. Jazz is not intellectual wank any more than Punk is a "f*cking racket* and Rock 'n' Roll was going to subvert the youth of America and Europe, even if it did.
If you like it, you like it. If you don't like it, you insult it. Every insult should probably be followed by a "to me," or prefaced with an "In my opinion". We're not allowed to state, definitively, that fuses can't improve your hi-fi or that grounding boxes are expensive sand castle containers, but we are still allowed our opinions. Same with Jazz. If it really does upset your musical sensibilities, there is no obligation to listen to it. Personally, there is a "type" of Jazz I don't like, but I don't listen to it, but I do own some.
As Sir Thomas Beecham put it, “Try everything once, except folk dancing and incest.”
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Post by moomalade on Jul 9, 2023 13:57:23 GMT
There's some very musical and listenable jazz musicians. For me Bill Evans, Pat Metheny and Gene Ammons are favourites, while all very different share a soulful musicality, tuneful and structured music.
So many styles of Jazz that might as well be completely separate genres entirely, I agree a lot of it can be an offensive and unlistenable pretentious mess.
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Post by daytona600 on Jul 9, 2023 16:50:06 GMT
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Post by daytona600 on Jul 9, 2023 16:54:55 GMT
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Post by Tim on Jul 10, 2023 18:38:04 GMT
Jazz is not intellectual wank any more than Punk is a " f*cking racket* and Rock 'n' Roll was going to subvert the youth of America and Europe, even if it did.
I had a whole paragraph typed out but I just deleted it . . . I'll leave it at that and go and play some intellectual wank music instead.
But you are bang on Slinger . . . I don't like it or understand it, so I'll insult it and puff out my chest
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bencat
Rank: Quartet
Posts: 353
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Post by bencat on Jul 12, 2023 12:56:59 GMT
Ahh the Jazz is hard to listen to , which for some styles is very true . Jazz has lots of different strands some harder to listen than others and in some cases not possible to listen and stay sane . However there are some tracks that transcend this and are just great to listen to . Julie London - Fly me to the Moon is the first that springs to mind . Herbie Hancock - Head Hunters album is next . Leon Redbone - I want to be Seduced follows that . Miles Davis - TuTu . Some Art Tatum will do but search and read his advice to bring a musician it is interesting and funny . I am sure more will come to me but Fela Kuti is always good to finish with .
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Post by ajski2fly on Jul 12, 2023 15:01:21 GMT
Personally I enjoy a bit of daily wanking, oops I mean listening to Jazz, oh dear I think I am becoming too excited thinking about. l'll go and put on some COOL JAZZZZ! On a more intellectual front it might be worth considering where Jazz comes from, for example did Jazz sporn the Blues or visa-versa, or was something else involved, perhaps you should consider early vaudeville music, as well as call and response songs and music of Africans that were slaves in the Americas and elsewhere through the 1700's and 1800's. And of course you would be remise to forget Ragtime and its direct influences on the aforementioned. Also you need to consider the emergence of swing jazz, Dixieland, boogie-woogie, stride-piano and Jazz & Blues. In the 1940's Bepop came out of aspects of this wiki "Bebop musicians explored advanced harmonies, complex syncopation, altered chords, extended chords, chord substitutions, asymmetrical phrasing, and intricate melodies." Prior was the swing band era with up around fourteen or so musicians and careful orchestrated arrangements, whereas bebop groups were small and whilst they adhered to basic tunes and chords structure for songs introduced elements of improvisation. Rock'n'Roll in parallel evolved in the USA in the 40's and 50's and wiki "It originated from African-American music such as jazz, rhythm and blues, boogie-woogie, gospel, jump blues, as well as country music. While rock and roll's formative elements can be heard in blues records from the 1920s and in country records of the 1930s, the genre did not acquire its name until 1954." "Rock music as it became to be called in the mid to late 60's is a broad genre of popular music that originated as "rock and roll" in the US , developing into a range of different styles from the mid-1960s, particularly in the U.S. and the UK." We all know that Rock exploded later on to many genres. And we must not forget wiki "Pop music is a genre of popular music that originated in its modern form during the mid-1950s in the US and the UK During the 1950s and 1960s, pop music encompassed rock and roll and the youth-oriented styles it influenced. Rock and pop music remained roughly synonymous until the late 1960s, after which pop became associated with music that was more commercial, ephemeral, and accessible."Going back to Jazz, in the mid 50's onwards Modal Jazz started be explored , wiki "significant compositions of modal jazz were "So What" by Miles Davis and "Impressions" by John Coltrane."So What" and "Impressions" follow the same AABA structure and were in D Dorian for the A sections and modulated a half step up to E-flat Dorian for the B section." This is probably the birth of modern jazz and much greater experimentation, with the use of key transformations, along with even more adventurous improvisation using different keys superimposed over others. So actually if you think about it we probably all most of the time listen to music that has some derivation or roots in Jazz, so we are all probably enjoying some form of intellectual wank on a daily basis, musically speaking that is. As a sub-note, just to be clear it is extremely difficult to clearly separate the origins of blues and jazz, it is not just about musical structures but also rhythms, many of which derive from African music of various forms. In the early 1900's to 1930's many aspects as explored above crossed over each other and new musical types or genres came into being. I actually wrote a paper on the history of modern music for a course in music I was attending at one time about 15 years ago. What I found most interesting is even though we have a huge amount of musical variety today, the basic foundations of most modern western music lies specifically in 3 or 4 forms of original music going back 200 years of so, Blues, Jazz and Folk & Country. Over the last 30-40 years this has become even more complicated as globalisation has occurred and "World Music" has been influencing different styles and genres, the internet and accessibility to almost anything instantly has has a huge impact on this in recent years as well. So go and get you daily Jazz fix.
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Post by Stratmangler on Jul 13, 2023 12:22:54 GMT
This is superb, and I don't give a flying wotsit what anyone else thinks about it if it differs from my view. Nils Kugelmann - Stormy Beauty (2023) Qobuz 24/48 FLAC streaming
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Post by Slinger on Jul 13, 2023 13:00:06 GMT
This is superb, and I don't give a flying wotsit what anyone else thinks about it if it differs from my view. Which is the ONLY thing that matters.
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Post by julesd68 on Jul 13, 2023 14:46:26 GMT
This is superb, and I don't give a flying wotsit what anyone else thinks about it if it differs from my view. Which is the ONLY thing that matters. Listening now, very nice indeed ...
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